Episode 23: Fingers Crossed Is Not A Plan With LTC Expert Raymond Lavine

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Sing that again, mom. Let's hear it. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Brace. And to be here to always be thee, always unsee trembling to be. When you are here in this work of empty, you're going to be tumor constant day. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Very good. It made a little difference, I think, when the. When the mic was not directly over the mouth. Although it says when you're recording, the advice is to not put the mic directly over your mouth. It should be a couple inches away, but the way these are designed, it's already a couple inches away. [00:00:47] Speaker C: So you'd have to have a very tiny head in order for that mic to be right in front of like, maybe, I don't know, a three month old. If you put that on, it would be in front of their mouth. I don't know though. Infants have big heads. [00:01:00] Speaker A: I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know any of that data. That's a topic for a different podcast. [00:01:08] Speaker C: What podcast do you think that would be about? Do infants have big heads? [00:01:13] Speaker A: I don't know. Like someone like the author of Everyone Poops could start a podcast and that's fascinating. Is that a big book or like a baby book or something? Obviously I'm not the kind of baby books. [00:01:25] Speaker C: I don't think. Yeah, you're bad at this. I don't think babies need to breed everyone poops. I think maybe a little more appropriate when we're in the potty training era. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. All right, good to know. [00:01:37] Speaker C: Okay, well, perhaps we should focus on our pod. If it's not one thing, it's Joanna. [00:01:44] Speaker A: It certainly is. And by the way, nice segue. Unintentional mom poops too. And we know all about that, but so does our listeners. Everyone does poop. Oh my God. Including Joanna. And including you, our dear listener. But let's not talk about poop anymore. Cause we got more important things to talk about today. And just to remind everybody about the format of this particular podcast, what we like to do is take a topic regarding the challenges of senior care, talk about how we've dealt with it with our current experience with our mom, bring an expert on, then to interview deeply about that topic and give us their insights. And then we'd like to wrap things up after that chat. And intermixed is a couple interstitials of mom playing some tunes as she still likes to do. If you are new to the podcast, I just thought it'd be worthwhile to review the format. Karen, anything to add on the format? [00:02:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, a couple things. One is that while our guests are usually experts in the field, we also invite people on who share their testimonials, their own experiences as they relate to maybe care of a loved one in some instance. So, yes, we kind of offer a little bit of a variety in that category. And the other piece that we've talked about briefly is that it's getting harder to get mom to sit at the piano and sing and play. And so our tunes may have changed a little bit or you might be hearing snippets of ones that you've heard before, just because it's a little more complicated to try to get her to do that. Although I really love our opening song, and this one is you cueing her and her singing a cappella with her own kind of garbled words, but also just sweetness and joy. I loved it. [00:03:30] Speaker A: She's been walking around the house, and as she walks around the house, she's just regularly, like, she has a theme song to her walks. And now she just keeps singing raindrops, sun, roses, and la la la. Like that. And just keeps coming out. She keeps coming out. So, like, every once in a while now I'll just try to catch her. Not as much piano. Maybe some more acapella in the future. [00:03:51] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's working. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Though I will say that I'm doubt our listeners notice that there's repeats of songs. They kind of all sound alike. [00:03:58] Speaker C: So a greatest hits cd, for instance, or created a Spotify playlist, you might recognize a little overlap. But that's okay. [00:04:07] Speaker A: It's like the old criticism, which I feel like is an unfair criticism of musical artists when they put out an amazing album and someone comes out and says, yeah, but every song kind of sounds like the same. But if that song is amazing, isn't that a great album? [00:04:20] Speaker C: I mean, okay, fair noted. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Maybe not noted. I think there's room for diversity and there's also room for similarity of song, but that's not either here nor there. [00:04:33] Speaker C: The good news, it's neither here nor there. [00:04:36] Speaker A: Neither here nor there. [00:04:37] Speaker C: It's neither here nor there. When you use neither, you have to have a nor. [00:04:43] Speaker A: So neither is not right. [00:04:45] Speaker C: Well, neither, Neither, either, either. Potato, potato. Let's call the whole thing off. No, what I'm saying is that if you use the word either, you can't use nor, and if you use neither, you can't use or the ends coincide. [00:04:58] Speaker A: So either or, or neither nor, they have to alter. [00:05:01] Speaker C: Nicely done. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:02] Speaker A: All right. I've learned something today. [00:05:03] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:05:05] Speaker A: The good news about this podcast if you're looking for some good news out there in the world is that. [00:05:11] Speaker C: And who isn't? [00:05:12] Speaker A: Who isn't is that we're starting to get unsolicited reach outs from people to be a guest on our podcast. And [00:05:22] Speaker C: I want to say, just so you know, when we get those, I try to be really cool about it, like, oh yeah, of course you want to be on your, our pod, but really I'm going, oh my God, people want to be on our pod. I'm very excited about it. [00:05:32] Speaker A: We're, I mean the big moment in the podcast is when we finally reject someone that reaches out. That's going to be fantastic. I can't wait. It hasn't happened yet, but, oh, it's going to happen one of these days. And that's when we really made it. When we start denying people access who [00:05:45] Speaker C: want to be on or saying, well, we have a very long wait. So, you know, perhaps I'm getting on in six to eight months. [00:05:51] Speaker A: We'll get to you, we'll get to you when we get to you. But today is the first, I think of one of those reach outs. Raymond Levine is an expert in a topic that we've touched on before, but I think is worth another deeper dive which is long term health insurance. And I know when we long term care insurance, sorry, long term care insurance, especially something that is designed to help a senior when they need it badly if they happen to live a very long time, like knock on wood comma, so far mom has and it's a fascinating topic because I feel like people can agree that it is definitely worthwhile to have, but it's also not very accessible because of various reasons of being kind of expensive and unpredictable and getting the claims to actually follow through on what you originally thought it would, it would cover. There's all a host of issues which leads to honestly most people not purchasing it. [00:06:55] Speaker C: And so what was that the statistic that you said was only it's 3%. [00:07:00] Speaker A: It seems to be a pretty consistent statistic that 3% of people actually purchased long term care when it's the best time to purchase it like in their 60s. So it's a still it's changing and obviously the supply of people that are going to need it is going to be exploding with the Silver tsunami. And so we've touched on, I know with Richard Eisenberg new creative solutions that are bundling this with other health insurance or other insurance. And there's people are trying to figure this out and so we want to stay ahead of it and figure out what is the best way to analyze this, to figure this out. And just from our own perspective, full disclosure, we don't have it. We don't have it for Mom. We don't have it for either of us individually. And so that's so far been the decision. But it's something we definitely want to stay on top of and figure out. And so we thought maybe it's a good idea to have a little micro series on long term care. And Raymond is going to be the first one we're going to talk to. We're going to hear his perspective. And we're not either endorsing or not endorsing purchasing this type of. [00:08:08] Speaker C: We are neither endorsing nor endorsing. [00:08:14] Speaker A: That was perfect. [00:08:15] Speaker C: Don't swear on the pod. Then I have to learn. [00:08:17] Speaker A: I don't want to swear. I don't want to use the F word, but I feel like the S word is okay. The S word is okay. I feel like the F word is where I draw the line. [00:08:23] Speaker C: I haven't learned. I know I can. [00:08:27] Speaker A: No, this is a good opportunity to use like the blurred, like a blurb thing. You tried to do that. You can't do it. [00:08:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I tried it. It went poorly, but I'm going to try again. [00:08:36] Speaker A: All right, well, if you hear a blank spot, that sounds weird, like something was edited out. That was me using the S word. And we decided we're going to keep it clean. Keep it clean. But anyway, Raymond is going to come on, he's going to talk to us. We're going to have a fascinating discussion and we look forward to you guys learning something and starting this discussion and more research to try to see what's going on here and what people should do. [00:09:01] Speaker C: Beautiful. All right, let's get to it. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Let's get to it. [00:09:03] Speaker C: But here's mom to play us or sing to us a little ditty. I haven't decided which music is going to go in this interstitial, so we'll see what it is. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Just one look at you brings out the history in me. You and you alone bring out the history in me. And then when you're finished, you can always go to sea too. What do you want to be forever? [00:09:47] Speaker A: And we are back. Raymond Levine is with us. It's an honor and a pleasure. Raymond, how are you doing today? [00:09:53] Speaker D: I'm doing well. I'm in the morning in Washington state. We're having a beautiful western Washington temperature and weather day. And so I'm in very good humor and very. And even Better mental health at the moment. [00:10:07] Speaker C: Well, Raymond, to get us started, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into your current career? [00:10:13] Speaker D: I should, with my interesting and stimulating life, is that I grew up in Southern California, believe it or not, in the Hollywood Hills in Hollywood, California. I went to Hollywood High School. I am a graduate. [00:10:28] Speaker A: Wow. [00:10:29] Speaker D: And very cool. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Maybe not be as glamorous as, as it sounds. [00:10:33] Speaker D: It was, it was, it was an okay experience. It was. I had a mediocre high school experience in a glamorous neighborhood and a Hollywood high school has, you know, sort of at least had this glamorous experience and a number of, you know, actors, you know, came out of Hollywood High School. But anyway, it was, it was, it was an okay public school experience. And then after I left high school, then things got even better. I went, I was in the army for three years, you know, certified in the military, went to college, usc, University of Southern California. And then most of my career has been in financial services, whether it's been in insurance, life insurance, mutual, New York, New England companies, banking, commercial and mortgage banking. And the last decade and a half I focus primarily with long term care benefits. And you'll probably ask me questions about, you know, what's this long term care benefits stuff or care and caregiving. But that's really where, you know, that's what I like to do and what I really, what gives me pleasure, what I love to do is to help people to have the conversation about a topic they don't want to talk about. It's not as much fun as other things that people like to do. And I recognize that. But just like many things in life, you gotta have the, you know, there's certain things in life you need to have the conversation, not the least of which is need to have periodic dental appointments, you need to have periodic primary care appointments, you need to periodically have appointments about your financial health, you know, how's your retirement plan doing and how are a lot of other, you know, how's your other insured. You need to do those kind of planning. Not fun, but, you know, do it and then, and then have a martini. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Thank you for that introduction. And it's, it's fascinating to learn a little bit more about how you got there. And we're really excited to have you on today because this is a topic that we've only touched on briefly in the past and we just assume it's going to be more and more important going forward. With so many seniors, the population of seniors exploding over the next Couple decades. And we are aware just topically about the long term care insurance industry also changing and there's different options that are evolving and, and honestly we come at this previously with an understanding that most people don't use it and a lot of people feel like it's too expensive and we're going to get into all that because I think there's a lot of things that people probably don't know about it. And we look forward to digging into the details with you. And I guess the first question is like, when someone comes to you and says, is long term care insurance worth it? What do you do? How do you help them answer that question for them? [00:13:07] Speaker D: Don't. And what do I mean by that? I don't tell people what, what they ought to do. I ask people, what do you want to do? And it can be in a variety of ways. If we're having the conversations, you know, some, some are depending on, you know, how they've had a caregiving situation or what their interests are. Some are already, you know, saying, look, I want to have the conversation. It's like, you know, going out and having a meal. You don't say, I'm in the restaurant and I'm really not sure if I'm going to meet. Of course, you know, I mean, that's why you're there. So some will be, you know, yeah, I want to have the conversation. Others are more hesitant and because they feel that Raymond Levine is going to raise his magic hands and, you know, convince them that they need to spend money to own a long term care plan whether they want to or not. You know, if you want to have an understanding about caregiving, we can go through all that. But what I ask people is want your caregiving to do. Have you even thought about it? Have you been in a personal experience that this happened? Because some people, a lot of people have been in caregiving and then forget the plot that, gee, if this happened to somebody, what am I going to do? I'll give you an example. I've had in my life some really severe health situations. The most severe in the last 12 years. I've had two serious heart attacks and a hernia situation. And so I got the plot that there are things that I need to do both for my health and my living to not just say, I'll go on the way I was. That wouldn't work. Is that if you've had an experience, sometimes get the plot of. Charles wrote a book called the Power of Habit, which I read and I actually, I've read it several times and I think about it's, if something has happened in your life, perhaps you need to change your habits. And caregiving is not a habit. And what I mean by that is we're not culturally thinking about caregiving. We think more about our vacations or we'll think sort of about a retirement plan. We'll think about certain things. We want to ignore the two things, you know, they always say, you know, death and taxes. But what we really don't, is we don't want to face the fact that we may need caregiving and what, whatever. You know, sometimes people need caregiving early. Some people have, you know, children or families that have special needs. So it might start a lot earlier than, you know, just, you know, saying, well, long term care is, you know, for us old geezers, it isn't. It can be. It could be at almost any time. People have all kinds of issues. They have issues, you know, of accidents, they have issues of illness, even maybe early, early stage cognitive. So just to think of it as, you know, caregiving is older may or may not be the case. [00:15:36] Speaker C: But you bring up an interesting point that I automatically think of long term care as I'm old and maybe somewhat incapacitated. [00:15:44] Speaker A: Incapacitated, Yeah, I was thinking that too. It's interesting. [00:15:46] Speaker C: Yeah. That I hadn't really thought about the fact that you might need it for a different purpose. And I guess I didn't even, it didn't even register with me that of course that would be part of what we're talking about that long term care insurance isn't just because you're elderly. [00:16:02] Speaker D: Exactly. Because you don't know when you're going to fall off the ladder. I don't advocate it. I have fallen off ladders. I don't advocate it. But there are a lot of things that happen to people if you don't have the plan. If you have, oh, you were asking, is some already motivated? Some will say, you know, they'll be begrudging. But you know, sometimes once they sort of overcome, you know, the fear of me or the fear of, you know, gee, you know, I'm going to sell them a plan and they'll have a premium for 25 years. You know, oh, Lordy, it's, you know, sometimes people, you know, it takes them a while to sort of get the plot of maybe I should have a plan. And here's the reason. And there are a lot of reasons to have, you know, even, even if it doesn't begin with a robust plan, at least you begin with something. And the example I always use is start with your retirement planning. Are you going to put in $5 million into your retirement plan right away? Most people, unless you inherit money or something, you know it's not going to happen. You'll do it incrementally. So sometimes depending on, you know, what the situation is that you know, start your caregiving or think about it and have the conversation. And it's something else too when you buy. Most people don't really how to buy insurance. They think they do or that it's easier because they can do it. You look at put it on AI, whether it's ChatGPT or Cloud or something, say, you know, tell me how to buy this insurance. Give you ideas. In most situations I think you're better off, you know, having the conversation with a live person and not do it yourself. Once you get people, you know, to understand the plot of what this caregiving stuff is about, then they'll start. Either they'll reveal stories, they'll reveal themselves, or you know, how do you want to pay for it? I mean, there are a lot of questions or things that I want to know from their perspective, not from mine. What is it that if you were to have a caregiving situation, where do you want your care? Who do you want to be responsible? And the third part leg of this is how are you going to pay for it? Even if you are the caregiver, even if you are the volunteer, do you really think that that's free? It's one way or another. Even though the caregiving is personal, it's always about money because they're all. You're always wondering if I'm the caregiver, what am I giving up? [00:18:18] Speaker A: And maybe it's worthwhile. It's very interesting to open this up into just beyond the elderly and natural conditions that arrive when you get older. One thing that comes to mind, maybe you can help us define what long term care insurance is. Because if you go to someone and say, hey, something might happen to you when you're 40 or 50 and so you need this too. But they're, they have like a job, stable job and they have health insurance and they're like, well no, I have, I have health insurance, so if something catastrophic happens, I'm covered. And then when you get older, also people have health insurance even when you're older, but certain things aren't covered and that's when long term care insurance steps in. So can you shed some light on what's the difference between regular medical insurance that covers Catastrophic stuff and long term care insurance. And when long term care like steps in to cover the gap. [00:19:05] Speaker D: I'll begin with two words. One is confusion and the other is idiotic confusion is that we don't always understand, you know, the differences in plans. The difference between health insurance, difference between disability, the difference between Medicare, difference between Medicaid, there's confusion about that. Our health system, it's astonishing how we differentiate that. We'll take care of your health, but we won't. But you gotta get dental coverage as a separate rider. It's usually most important. You have to in many cases get additional insurance if you can get it. I am not a great scientist, but my head I think is attached to my body. And it seems that the health insurance, let's make, why don't we have it comprehensive. The other part of the equation is that you know that if you own a car, you gotta have car insurance. If you own an apartment, you'll probably get apartment insurance. Certainly if you own a home, you're gonna get homeowner's insur. Then if you have a business, you know, you'll get business insurance. [00:20:05] Speaker C: I'm thinking of, you know, I taught school for 30 years, so I retired with a pension and, and lifetime insurance. Fortunately, there's no long term care insurance involved in that. I mean beyond just my regular health insurance. Is it, is that even something that's happening where people are buying insurance plans that also have LTC or is that always something that people are buying separately? [00:20:29] Speaker D: If it's with a company, it needs to be part of, you know, the long term care or their benefits. And it depends on the company. It also depends on what benefit brokers, what they know, what they understand. And a lot of them don't know how to explain it to companies because it's specialized. This is complicated. What I do is not complicated. People just think it's complicated. You don't know when it's going to happen. You don't know when you're going to get cancer, you don't know when you might have a stroke. You never know if you're going to get an automobile accident. There may be a lot of things that happen in the arc of life. It isn't just always that you're older that things are gonna happen. I guarantee you that. You know, and I mean the studies, you know, show it isn't just us older geezers, it's, you know, it's younger people that sometimes for long periods of time and when I t, you know, in the long term care world, what it means is you need care 90 days or longer, not 90 days or less. That's considered short term or recovery. You need it for, you know, care for at least 90 days. That's the, that's the beginning definition. But I just want to emphasize you, you don't know what you don't know. And there's a difference between and, and it's also some people willing to gamble and they're saying, well, it won't happen, I'll wait till I'm older. But then, you know, when it happens, then, then, then, then you lose the bet and then it becomes your, your personal responsibility. [00:21:55] Speaker C: Sure. Would a good long term care insurance policy cover a move to assisted living or at home, 24 hour care? I mean, I assume that's really the main purpose of buying the insurance is because those are incredibly expensive. Is that really what people are looking for when they're talking about long term care? [00:22:15] Speaker D: Ultimately, that's part of, that's the conversation is that, you know, is, is to knowledge people. You know, we always say when we're educating, I mean, I'm, I'm informing, I'm knowledging. But what I'm more interested is the people can internalize to say, I needed the situation. What do I want, what care do I think that I need? You know, you don't know what you don't know. If you've never been in a caregiving situation yourself or you've never done it with other people, if you, if you've studied it and you're knowledgeable and you know, have an idea what to do, then, then you have a plan. But when it comes to caregiving, most people don't. Have you read a book lately about caregiving? You know, what it is, what it does, what it's supposed to do, all [00:22:53] Speaker A: the well we have. Yeah, because we're deep in it. [00:22:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:22:57] Speaker C: But otherwise. Yeah. I mean, because of this podcast and because we're caring for our mom. We have. But otherwise would I have? [00:23:03] Speaker B: No. [00:23:03] Speaker C: And it's an interesting point that, you know, I consider myself to be beyond middle age, but I'm healthy and I think, well, okay, when it comes time, will I be able to afford my care? And I guess the question I think about when I think about LTC is, well, will that help me if I am in a situation where I can no longer take care of myself? I mean, what does that look like from the perspective of long term care insurance? [00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Can we. You know what I think would be helpful, Raymond, if we can, is like walk through And I know every situation is different, but let's try to walk through a mean example, mean like the median example of what might happen and what that, how that relates to someone who's maybe younger, like around 60 or maybe older around 80 and like if they had long LTC or if they didn't have LTC, what's the deal? So like for a younger person and yeah, accidents can happen and someone who's like working at a pretty stable job, decent medical insurance and like they get in a car accident and they're paralyzed and they're 60, what is the consequence for them for not having long term care insurance? When does that money from the existing insurance run out? And what could long term care insurance cover for them? And then how much would they have had to pay if they bought it at like, like 40 to prepare for something or 50 to prepare for something catastrophic like that? I know it's a lot, but like, however you can get down into some of the numbers of this stuff, I think it'd be useful to, to understand how it flows. [00:24:29] Speaker D: A lot of information. I'll start off with the word grim. If you don't have some sort of caregiving, it's grim to say it's, it's the same situation whether, whether you're affluent or you're not. And my mother was, you know, affluent and she owned long term care benefits and she needed it for 18 years. She died a few years ago at 103. Now let me, before I forget, you know, go through the arithmetic before I go through, you know, why she bought it. My mother was an outlier of, she began because she had mobility issues and so she needed care and you know, for you know, 15, 20 hours a week, but eventually became 24 hours for the last two or three years of her life. Now you're in West Los Angeles, one part of West Los Angeles corridor and you know, Your care is $50 an hour times 24 times 7, times 30, times 12. Do the arithmetic. Now this is somebody that was making an income in the seven figures. And I asked her, and this is an estate planning attorney, this is a knowledgeable person bought insurance for, you know, 80, 90 years and weren't insurance buyers and what they needed eventually they'd been through this enough time, eventually they did buy long term care benefits. And I asked her, I said, look, you've been making all this money and why did you decide to buy long term care benefits? And they bought it through one of their legal organizations and it offered and she got it. My father Couldn't because he already had pre existing conditions. But I asked her, said well you know, why'd you buy it? And she gave, I thought the best answer I've ever heard. She bought it because she says, look, nobody has that much money to pay for the lifestyle and for caregiving because caregiving, you know, as, as an expense to care for you is, is expensive. And, and so when people say well, long term care benefits, the premiums, you know what's expensive? You know, if, if, if you have health plan and then you need care, you're going to say to the doctor, you know, what's your best price? Or I want, I want, I want the least expensive, the least experienced person to care for me. It's usually the, I want the, that really know what they're doing to care for me. And I guarantee you when you want, you know, if you need caregiving, you want the best care you can get and it's expensive. [00:26:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate that. That's a great direct example. So like that's upwards of 40,000amonth just to care for her. And you said she was on it for 18 years. Like at what age did she buy it and how much were her monthly premiums and how many years did she pay those before she activated the long term care benefit? [00:27:18] Speaker D: Well this was in the early 90s, so premiums were a lot less. And also underwriting health assessment wasn't as stringent as it is now. So she bought it in her early 70s. Most people, you know, when they say when should you buy it is as, as soon as you can, even if you have to add to it, meaning, you know, the term is stacking. But start as early as you can. And I have two examples for that. The same as, you know, know if you want, you know, whatever amount of money you want for your retirement, the sooner you can start putting in $100, 203, whatever it is that you need, you know, put in your retirement plan, you need to give it time. So she, she was at that age, you know, she, she bought it, you know, a lot later and it cost a lot more. Both premium, you know, again this is the early, early 90s, but she had the funds to do it, but she didn't need, she paid for, I don't know, eight or nine years and then used it for 18 years. And I'll guess it could have been two, 300amonth maybe. But she got more back than she [00:28:18] Speaker C: had her long term care insurance actually cover her care. Did it cover $40,000 a month? [00:28:26] Speaker D: It covered A lot of it. But you know, but she had, you know, additional funds that you see. This is also the thing is when people, you know, you may or may not need to cover, you know, 100% because I don't know what 100% is. And what I mean by that is if you're at home and depending on how, I don't know, do you need 5,000amonth? Well, you know, usually that's the standard thing, but the earlier you get it, you're giving it time to grow and that's where people think, well, I'll do it later. Well, later means that you're going to have to buy a more robust plan because you don't have as much time. You don't have the time. If you're in your 60s or 70s, this isn't time, but if you buy it in your 30s or 40s, you're giving it time to issue your health. We don't know. I don't know the way I do now. You know, when your health is where you have pre existing, when you're not going to be as healthy or you have, you know, a number of issues, you have diabetes, you have weight, you have cancer, whatever it may be, then it makes getting it more difficult because your health assessment is more challenging. You either may not be denied, you may be rated, or you may, you know, depending on what can be done. You can get a short term plan. There are a number of, you know, ways you can do it depending on the state that you can get plans that maybe it isn't as long, but I can. Some of these short term care plans can be as good or better than even the longer term plans and they can be as robust and the premiums aren't as excessive and the health assessment may not be as stringent or you know, when I have the conversation, it's what's your health? What's your financial situation? What do you want to accomplish? Well, yeah, if you have the conversation with me, I'll summarize it and then, you know, it's like with your car insurance. You know, you always want a higher deductible when you don't need it. And then when you do need it, you want the lower deductible because you want the insurance company to pay for it. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Well, yeah, it's a, it's a gamble any way you slice it. And, and no matter when you decide to do it, if you decide to do it, it's all a gamble. You're gambling at 40. If you decide to do it. Because it may not need it. And you'll be paying tens of thousands of dollars, you know, and then never need it. But then the other side is true too. You could be like, I probably won't need it. I'll be fine. Maybe I've got a lot of money, so I'll be able to pay for it. And then something really bad happens and you're in that situation for a really long time and then you wish you would have done it. So it's really difficult. There is no crystal ball that you can magically look into. [00:30:51] Speaker D: But you see, let me just one point. That is that there's a difference between gambling and risk. Women does not gamble. I like going to Las Vegas. Raymond doesn't gamble. Why? Because I don't like losing money. And also I just don't, I don't enjoy the games. I like watching them, but I, but I don't, I don't. [00:31:09] Speaker A: You gotta try craps, Raymond. You'll be, you'll be. It's infectious. It's infectious. That's a different podcast. [00:31:15] Speaker D: I'm, I'm, I'm an advocate of risk, is that there's certain things that I will risk, but I'm not willing to gamble. But you know, if it's say, look, you know, I might lose something, but I don't lose everything, I'm okay, I'm okay with the risk. And so, so this is the risk you take when you make decisions. You know, you take a risk of your relationships, you take a risk, you decide, you know, do you want to lease your car, do you want to finance it, do you want to pay cash? You know, there are a lot, you know, or investments. Sometimes it's a risk, but it's usually unless, you know, you're putting into a limited partnership or something, most things are not. You don't lose everything. At least, you know, you might get something out of it. So that, that's where I advocate. [00:31:57] Speaker C: I've heard so many stories from actually friends of mine who are taking care of parents who do have long term care insurance. And it isn't covering. There's. There are so many stipulations or there are so many pieces that they thought, well, I thought it was gonna cover this and it didn't work out. And I, maybe that is why, you know, I think less than 3% of people buy it at the time that they're supposed to. Is that true? Is that something that we should be thinking about? Because I would hate to think that you're putting, you're paying all these premiums and then it's time to use it and. Oh, right, but it doesn't cover this or it doesn't cover that. [00:32:30] Speaker D: Well, you know, look, I would not be in this long term care business if I thought it was, it was that. If the industry and the insurance company and the plans were that awful, I wouldn't be advocating, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't own it. I mean, we've owned ours for almost 20 years. I wouldn't be paying these premiums and have it if I thought it was, you know, put in terms of a scam or, or a hoax or something. [00:32:55] Speaker C: I don't want to say that I think it's a scam. That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm just worried about it. It seems to get a bit of a bad rap that's the premiums are going to be high. There are so many pieces that aren't necessarily covered. You have a pension, you'll have Social Security, you know, in the end you'll probably break even with the amount you're bringing in and the amount you're paying out. [00:33:16] Speaker D: If you need it, have the conversation with somebody that's, you know, know reputable and knowledgeable to say, at least have the conversation. I'll give you an example. You know, annuities, some people will say, you know, yes, own an annuity because you'll have a lifetime income and you can, and depending on, you know, you can leave it to your beneficiary. Some people are advocate of annuity. Some people say it's the biggest scam in, you know, human history to have an annuity. Same with life insurance. You know, should you own life insurance? Should you own term, should you own home life? What should you do? One of the things actually, before I forget it, if you own life insurance, never let it lapse and never trade it in. If you have a term policy that is a rollover, sell it. Or if you have life insurance and you don't need it for afterlife expenses to your family, sell it. It's an asset, sell it. And then you might have a better benefit to add to the pot for your caregiving or other expenses. Sell it. Don't let it la. If it, if it can, if it can roll over, it's an asset. Don't let it lapse, don't trade it in, sell it. These are all the things that if, you know, some people advocate life insurance, some people don't. Some people say, you know, it's a waste of the question and when I'm thinking of, you know, my financial decisions to say might be either my present problems or what might be my future problems, what's going to solve it? What, what's on the menu. And look, the very wealthy buy, buy hundreds of millions of dollars of life insurance. Why? It's liquidity. And so they, and they'll spend, you know, a lot of money on why? Because it's liquidity and it's, it's a good investment because it isn't taxable. It can even, depending on the situation, even deduct the, deduct the premium. But they're looking for liquidity. They don't want to have to sell whatever their assets are for. Even if there's a modicum of estate, you know, of inheritance tax, people buy it for liquidity. It isn't often known, but the people that want to keep their legacy and hand it off do planning. And they may buy things, they may not love it, they may not like it, but they do it because it solves a problem. And insurance doesn't solve everything. Look, long term care benefits is not going to make you healthier. It's not going to make you better looking. It's not going to. There are a lot of things it's never going to do. But what I can guarantee, if you understand what you're buying, is that it's going to allow people to have, have the flexibility of making choices. And Americans like to make choices. They don't, you know, they'll complain about, you know, well, I don't want people to tell me what to do. I guarantee you if you don't have a plan, whether you own insurance or not, is that when you, in that situation, you need care, you may not have, you will have fewer choices of maybe where you can have your care, who will be responsible for your care and how you're paying for it. And if you go to any, you know, social services, they're going to have their rules and expectations and you may be eligible, but you're not entitled. Even if it's veterans benefits. I'm a veteran. I can get a certain amount of veterans benefits, but I'd have to qualify financially. Well, I'm not going to qualify financially because, you know, I have assets, so that's not going to work. These are all, these are so, you know, have, you know, at least the conversation, know what your risks are, not what you're gambling, what your risks are to decide. You know, look, maybe it is a good, maybe it's really a crappy Idea, you know, don't do it, don't pay the premium, don't own this plan. I've got, you've got a backup at least if you have a backup and you know, you know, you're pretty, you're assured or you're at least reasonably assured that it will work fine. But you know always to say, well I have enough cash flow. Cash flow when in 2026 or in 2036 or if you have CDs or money mark, what's that pumping out and right now if you buy treasuries, you know you'll get a better return. [00:37:08] Speaker A: That's actually a question I have, Raven, because when, let's say someone, it seems like I'm willing to concede if you got enough money, everyone should get it. But let's talk about somebody who's like a middle income person who has a decent retirement income and has had good insurance most of their life. They're 60 years old, they're approaching retirement. And what is something specific that like you talk about some of these buckets that they might already be spending money on. What is something specific where you can go to them and say hey, hey, you're spending 2, $300 a month on this. You should convert it to long term care insurance right now. Are there some low hanging fruit examples? [00:37:44] Speaker D: Yes, if you want, you know, if you're willing to spend $95 a month for a true freedom plan, you don't, you don't need any health, you don't need anything. Except the only criteria is you cannot immediately need caregiving. You got to give it time. We only spend $95 a month and it's just four tier. You can pay up to, I think you, what you're buying, it's like getting a Costco membership or Walmart or aaa. It's a subscription plan. And the difference is that you know, if you, if you need care, whatever, or you're not feeling well, you can call them up and say hi, I need a caregiver. You don't need to, you know, have a doctor's permission. You don't need any of that stuff. I, I, I, I, I need, I need Rosie to come in and you know, help me with the, with these activities of daily living. And it begins at $95 a month. It's available in any state or, and actually we, we own it too because we have a waiting period and so I bought it in order to take care of the, the waiting period before and then if I, we need the long term care then you know, then we'll apply to the insurance company to get certified for that. In the interim we'll get, you know, we can have home care because in most situations, probably start of with home care. And the other reason is because I had to go to a home, a care center, nursing assistant. I'll get expelled because of my personality. [00:39:05] Speaker C: There's no amount of insurance that'll keep you in there. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Platinum plan wouldn't even cover that. [00:39:10] Speaker D: RAYMOND but it seems like the east coast and the west coast, you know, they complain about Medicaid, you know, people needing it and then they don't offer short term care plans. And there's some really, there's Aetna, there's Manhattan Life and, and there's Willoughby. They are terrific short term care plans. They're really, really good plans for home care. It'll pay for care center but it's usually either one or two years depending on, you know, if somebody says look, everybody in my family, when they either die quickly or they're all, everybody's dead within two years, guaranteed everybody's dead. But they can be some great plan. Also some of these are renewable too. You can use it and then you can renew it a couple of times. But you know, you can get as good or better benefits in a short term care plan. What does it do? First of all, the premiums aren't as high as if you have a regular long term care plan, whether it's traditional or hybrid. Why? Because the risk is less. You know, the shorter the risk, the more that the insurance company will do, the longer the risk, then the insurance company is going to be more careful again. It's like your home and you don't have your home. It's a risk, you know, certain people are going to default. Credit cards, you know, you know, you know why credit cards are 27% put the fault on them or late, late in their payment. Getting better with care plans. Now long term care, that health assessment is, is more efficient. There are a lot of things that were more efficient people complained about for good reason, the waiting time and the doctors and the forms and all that stuff. So things are more efficient so you can get a short term care. Terrific, terrific plans I think reasonable and premiums. Look, if you don't, if you can't make the rent, rent, if you, or, or the mortgage and, or buy food and your, and, and your medication, then, then you're really into the social services category or if you can qualify for the VA or Medicaid, you're in that situation. But if you're making more than, you know, just, you know, covering your life expenses. There may be things that you need to, you know, not they use the word sacrifice. Maybe I'm, I don't have the faith, I'm not going to really sacrifice, but I'm willing to, you know, maybe change my. I, maybe I don't need as many meals out or maybe so I'll redistribute, you know, some of the lifestyle expenses or choice expenses to pay for a short term care plan. And then you can go into, then the hybrid plans. You can go into the traditional plans for longer periods of time and you get into the question can family. There are plans that are reimbursement and it's the same, you know, with car. It's, you don't, the insurance company doesn't send you the money and then you pay, you know, to get yourself repaired and same with or your car. Most health plans are not. They don't send you the money. They, you know, reimburse the hospital or the doctor. There are a number of plans that are reimbursement, meaning that it doesn't go to the license care money is transferred to your account and then you, then you can make those kind of choices. There are good things that happen about it. But you, but you have to be more organized. You have to make sure, you know, are there any Social Security or tax consequences to people that you're paying? You can get, you can have some, there's some plans that are even binary. It's both reimbursement and hybrid depending on the situation. So there's something out there for somebody, you know, having the conversation, sort of knowing what they want to do, what they tell me to do, I'll give them my opinion and I'll say, look, if everybody, you know, is living to old, you know, older age or something, you know, that they might want to then consider. But then if they say make this choice, this is what I want to do, then I'll summarize it and then don't get, you know, if it doesn't work out that way, don't get mad at me, don't get mad at the insurance company. Don't get mad at what? Or write and say, look, you know, they didn't do what they were supposed to do. The plan did exactly what it was supposed to do. You just decided on a plan that really maybe in time you thought was appropriate, but really in the long term it wasn't appropriate. And it happens the same with life choices. You know, spousal Choices with friend choices with investment choice. You have good investments and you have bad investments. [00:43:05] Speaker C: I do feel like long term health care insurance does get a bad rap. But also, I mean, I know plenty of people, by the way, who've said, yeah, it saved our financial life. I mean our, our mother is living in an assisted living facility that is beautiful and her insurance is covering the bulk of it and she would have never been able to have this kind of existence without it. So I certainly don't knock it at all. I just get nervous when there's so much conversation on both sides and a [00:43:31] Speaker D: lot of people have opinions about things of which they don't have the facts. And you know, and you know, you talk about, you know, it's only 3%. Harry Sutherland, who is a marketing person and I see his reels and you can find it on Facebook. Wonderful marketing person and a great and an even better storyteller. And it is, if it's only 3%, there's really lousy, crappy marketing from long term care. [00:43:53] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:43:54] Speaker D: Even though all the facts, Ralph. And even though all the, it's really lousy marketing, there are reason, there are reasons for that because since 2010, it went through, you know, a hellish experience. Niemus Rose health assessment plans changed. It was, it was chaos. You know, I use the example, you know, it happened, it's happened in banking. Have you given up having a bank account? Real estate has taken, taken a bad hit. Given up, sell your house, rent, let somebody else take, you know, people are still advocates of banks, although I have my issues about banks. And same with real estate. There are a lot of cars. I mean, I remember, you know, remember in 70s they were making cars that were so lousy they had a lemon molas. [00:44:39] Speaker A: Very true, Raymond, Very true, very true. Yeah. Well, anyway, thank you so much for shedding light. I mean you've opened so much purview on this topic and I really appreciate it. Anyway, we will be right back after mom plays us out with a little diddy. [00:45:00] Speaker B: On the street where you're living today and that's where you're gonna be doing it tomorrow in the universe for the next day on the street where you live. [00:45:26] Speaker C: And we are back following our discussion with Raymond Levine discussing conversations about term care insurance. Is it something we should be purchasing? Why haven't we purchased it? Why aren't we purchasing it? What does that look like for people at different ages and different phases of life? So I have to say I like to keep an open mind on these topics because I'M constantly bringing up the idea that I don't want people who will eventually have to take care of me in some respect to. I don't want to put people out. I want to make sure that I'm doing the things I need to do to take care of myself. And so I do think it's worth a deep dive and conversations about what may or may not be the best case scenario for me and all the people around me. [00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I gotta say, the one key takeaway that I have from talking with Raymond is something broader than just senior care and it's just human care for all of us. And it started me also along and again, I encourage everyone to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. But I was kind of surprised to see that standard medical insurance is not sufficient to take care of you for the rest of your life in the case of a catastrophic incident. If you are 30 years old and get into a, a catastrophic car accident and are paralyzed for the rest of your life, even if you're working for the hottest. Well, I don't know about the hottest, but like standard corporate medical insurance does not cover the needs that you will have to live for the next 50 plus years or whatever, however long you live. And that's really a wake up call. Like none of us, it seems, forget about the senior care, none of us have our own long term disability care plan in the case of something that could happen right now. And that's, that was very, very eye opening to just think about like, wow, I've got insurance. I just assume that if something happens it's covered and the immediate is covered, but not forever. And that is really, I mean, that's a little bit scary. [00:47:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:40] Speaker C: And I do think that, you know, again, I'm not an insurance expert, I don't pretend to be an insurance expert, but I do remember even in my teaching job there were conversations about long term disability and different, different topics that we really needed to do a lot of research on. And I, you're right, I would have even thought about that. But you know, we really, I don't mean to be a doomsday person, but it's really important for us to think about all the different scenarios that can happen and how are we preparing ourselves so that we don't end up in a absolutely even more catastrophic financial situation given our now catastrophic physical situation. [00:48:23] Speaker A: Well, and the other takeaway I have is that, that with that and senior care in general, it's like where are your priorities as far as what you're Spending now to prepare for the future. And so everybody's doing something like whether you have a 401k or whether you have are IRAs still a thing or like long term care plans, there's a bunch of different products that you can buy with the intention of taking care of you when you might need it. And, and again, at least to the moment, most people are choosing not to spend that money in long term care. And why and is that the right decision? And we push Raymond on this, which is, and I'm thankful for his kind of talking to us about it is like if you're really rich, of course get long term care. You got the money. I mean it seems like no brainer, like an extra few hundred bucks a month maybe for like a premium package. And I'm oversimplifying, I don't know all the different packages, but it seems to be that that's, that's not a crazy range throughout there. But like if you're poor or even like middle class and even a few hundred dollars a month is a big deal, of course you're not going to probably think about, oh, I should spend this just in case something happens to me 30 or 40 years down the road. And so is there something that can be created where someone pays only 50 or 100amonth? And you know, how can that be? How can these plans be be incorporated into other products that people would certainly see as relevant and interesting and important to them? This is still, I feel like almost the wild, wild west in this industry and hopefully we're going to see a lot of innovation and I look forward to learning more over the next however many episodes we're going to do talking about it. [00:50:09] Speaker C: Yeah. And also that brings me to a query for our listeners. Do you have long term care insurance? Did you purchase long term care insurance for your loved one? Have you used that long term care insurance that worked in the way that you hoped it would? This is a really cool conversation to have with people who are actually in this world right now and we would love to hear from you about that particular experience and hopefully you come on the POD and chat with us about that because I would like to know, yes, I purchased it and I was able to use it and I do know I have friends who have said we purchase for our parents and thank God we did. I don't know a lot of the other side other than, I mean we are on that other side. We don't have that insurance for mom and we are going through her pension and her Social Security and her savings to take care of her care. And we sit with fingers crossed hoping that she doesn't outlive that. And I also know there are social service programs, but those don't necessarily provide the same level of care that we're giving her. So I would love to put this out to our listeners to say if you would be willing to come and chat with us about your experience. Experience. Did you purchase it? Did it work? Did you not purchase it? Why are you not purchasing it? Share with us. You can reach out to [email protected] you can find us on Facebook or Instagram. If it's not one thing, it's Joanna. You can reach out through LinkedIn. But we think this would be a really great opportunity to really connect with people who have experienced this firsthand and we can glean something from your experience. Experience. [00:51:46] Speaker A: And if it's a sensitive topic and you wanted to keep it anonymous, I'm still looking for that opportunity to kind of do the hostage video where, like, the face is blackened out and the voice is muffled. And this might be a good opportunity for that. [00:51:58] Speaker C: I think instead of the hostage video, you should call it the informant video. Right. Like, they're usually the informants who prefer [00:52:04] Speaker A: to be the whistleblower. [00:52:05] Speaker C: The whistleblower. Although we're not asking people to be a whistleblower. But maybe you don't want to have your voice on the pot or your face on the pod or. That's fine. That's okay. [00:52:15] Speaker A: Listen, I just want to everybody to know that, like, anytime you want your identity disguised, we're happy to research the tools necessary to make that happen. [00:52:23] Speaker C: I love that you think that I am such a master editor that I would be able to do that. I can't even bleep out swear words. But I'm learning. I'm learning. [00:52:32] Speaker A: You get better every time. It's fascinating. And last episode, I will say, was, I think, only the second time. But even the fact that it's even happened two times is amazing. And shout out to Karen Edelson. She sent me her first draft edit, and I responded with no notes, not a single. And she knows how nitpicky I can be. [00:52:53] Speaker C: Yes. [00:52:53] Speaker A: And I always preface my notes with I'm just being nitpicky. If you don't feel the same way, it's fine. [00:52:58] Speaker D: But. [00:52:59] Speaker A: But what you really mean is not even a single small thing I could have said to make it better. Well done. [00:53:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Because usually we're back and forth and back and forth. Well, you need to fix this. You need to fix you don't have to but you could Meaning yes I do also I'm nitpicky as well so. [00:53:12] Speaker A: Right. It's good that she also feels like she wants it just right so I do. [00:53:16] Speaker C: I want it to be perfect. I want it to be perfect and when it's not and I have to say I'm going to have to leave it and there sounds like a blip oh well it is what it is. That's hard for me. [00:53:26] Speaker A: That's good quality. [00:53:27] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:53:27] Speaker A: We all appreciate it. [00:53:29] Speaker C: Well you're that you're very kind. Thanks. [00:53:32] Speaker A: All right. Well that's going to wrap it up for this one. I hope you guys enjoyed it. And here is mom to play it [00:53:38] Speaker C: us out or sing us out acapella [00:53:42] Speaker A: I guess we'll find out in one second. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Drops on roses and always to be Always on me Always could be and when we're here in a f we'll always will be tonight Great. [00:54:07] Speaker A: One moment.