Episode 3: Get Your Affairs In Order!

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Another word. Tell me to. [00:00:25] Speaker B: And welcome back. That was our mom playing another lovely number. As we've discussed before with each episode of our podcast, we're going to bring up a certain issue relating to senior care. We're going to tell you our story as it relates to our experience with our mom, and then we're going to bring an expert on to talk about how to work through that issue. Today we'll be talking about getting everything in order, especially on the legal and financial side. This is a huge challenge for a lot of seniors who are approaching or already dealing with dementia, and it's a really important structural aspect to caring for your senior. It's not just about the physical care and making sure that their physical health is okay. There's a lot of stuff that can blow up and go wrong if you don't have all of the administrative details of their life in order. Our guest later will be Russell Wise, an estate attorney. And first we're gonna talk a little bit about our mom, Joanna, and our experience. And my sister Karen, my trusty partner on the podcast, has always been the more intimately involved with these issues as our parents have aged. And so she's gonna tell us a little bit about what the experience has been. [00:01:41] Speaker C: Great. Thank you, my brother Andrew. So I have a story, and this actually happened just a couple weeks ago. So I thought it was kind of interesting because over the last several years, I' I thought I had kind of covered taking over all of Mom's finances, but every now and then something comes up. So this was an interesting one, that she had some pump issue in her basement. I needed to call her insurance company to see if she was covered. And lo and behold, I was not listed as an authorized user on her account. And so the woman, the agent I was talking to said, well, we can just get her verbal permission. And I said, well, I need to be clear that she has Alzheimer's and I'm not quite sure she's going to understand. And so of course she said, well, can you send me her power of attorney documents? Yes, I could, but that's going to take a while. By the time they get it and somebody at the company has to review it, et cetera, et cetera. We needed an answer quickly, so she said, let's just try putting her on speaker and see if we can get her approval. So, so we did that. The woman was lovely. Hi, Joanna, my name is so and so could I please have your verbal permission to talk to your daughter Karen about your homeowner's policy and mom looked confused. She didn't really understand. I was nervous about leading her too much because I didn't want it to look like I was trying to pull one over on anybody, but I was kind of trying to direct her. Mom, you can tell them it's okay for me to talk to your insurance company. She looked very confused. The woman asked again, and then I said, mom, it's all right for you to say yes, that it's okay for me to talk to your insurance company on your behalf. And mom responded with toast. And the woman on the other line, fortunately, said, yeah, okay, we're good. It looks like I have permission to talk to you. And the conversation went on. [00:03:36] Speaker B: It's pretty crazy that she accepted toast. That's an extraordinary amount of compassion from. [00:03:41] Speaker D: A customer service right there. [00:03:43] Speaker C: And quite honestly, I was surprised. I thought, oh, here we go. This is going to involve days of power of attorney while a sump pump is potentially backing up. But the interesting piece is that I've been working with my mom for so long, as her dementia has increased and her cognitive ability has declined, that I really thought I had taken care of every last piece of her finances. And I would imagine for our listeners, this is probably something that you deal with. You think you have everything in order, everything is going well, and then you find that something isn't. Because as we know, if it's not one thing, it's our mother. [00:04:21] Speaker B: It certainly is. And there are so many things to deal with. And I thought it might be useful. Why don't you take a little step back and. Because you've really dealt with two parents that have suffered from dementia and have been through so much of this, what happened in the very beginning that helped you understand all the issues and hurdles you'd had to overcome and then how to tackle it? [00:04:44] Speaker C: Well, unfortunately, our father also suffered from Alzheimer's. Ultimately, that's how he passed away in 2011. And with most dementia situations, you can see signs of decline. Mom was very with it at the time, which is almost kind of unimaginable when I look back and think of how completely with it she was. But she'd never really handled any of the finances in the house. You know, she didn't have a handle on the mortgage or paying bills, et cetera, which, in fairness, was sort of typical of her generation. Most of the men handled those things, even though they both had an equal part in contributing. My mom worked full time, dad worked full time, but that was his gig. So when he started to decline, we were fortunate that she took over, and she needed some help, but ultimately she was handling her finances. And then when he died, she was already ready to continue in that vein. And then the other piece that she did right after he died is she met with an estate attorney because we wanted to make sure that the estate was updated now that he was no longer with us. And in that estate, she clearly stated her wishes. She designated power of attorney. She put everything in writing, and everything was signed and sealed by the estate attorney. And we're going to discuss that more with Russ, but massively important. [00:06:11] Speaker B: And was she willing to go through that process to meet with the estate attorney and get all those things in order and understanding that that was something that was really important at that time? [00:06:21] Speaker C: Absolutely. And, you know, they had had things set up as a married couple, but she needed to change things as a single person. But it wasn't a ton of work. There weren't a lot of changes to be made. But we did very clearly discuss with her, well, what is it that you want? Even including her wishes, when she. What would happen when she became incapacitated, which child she designated for a power of attorney. Every last piece was very clearly stated and put forth in the estate. [00:06:52] Speaker B: And what were her general wishes at that time? Was anything specific about if dementia sets in discussed, or was it more general? [00:06:59] Speaker C: It was more general. I mean, I don't even know if estates work that way specifically for dementia. We'll ask Russ about that. But she was very clear that she wanted me to be her power of attorney. No offense to you and Julie, I'm sure that had a lot to do. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Of course it was the right call. [00:07:14] Speaker C: Well, my proximity and also, I mean, incredibly organized. [00:07:18] Speaker D: That's true. [00:07:19] Speaker C: But she had a durable power of attorney, one that was based on finances and another one about medical, clearly stating she had a dnr, a do not resuscitate order, which is helpful for a family so that you're not stuck making horrible decisions or put in a terrible situation that you're not ready for. [00:07:40] Speaker B: What is a dnr? Can you explain that a little bit more as it was explained to you, you. [00:07:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a do not resuscitate, meaning that if you are in the hospital and you have an incident that would potentially lead to the end of life and your quality of life would be deeply affected if you were resuscitated, say that you would potentially have to be on life support for the rest of your life. You make it very clear that you don't want to be resuscitated, and that's something that, you know, mom hasn't had a lot of hospital stays, but when you go to the hospital, you have to present that so they know the patient's wishes. [00:08:22] Speaker B: So she's got all these documents in place. The ducks are in a row, she's still in good health, dad has passed away. And so this new phase begins with her living alone and managing things on her own. And things are generally protected as best they can be. What are some of the things that start happening because at a certain point, you have to take over and the POA becomes active. And I know we're going to talk with Russ about the details and what triggers that, but what did you start to notice that led you to believe maybe I'm going to have to be starting to take over soon? [00:08:57] Speaker C: Well, you know, it started off in small ways, like I would come over to help her with something and I would look at her computer. There was always something going on with her computer. She was very. She was not tech savvy, which was actually. Which was actually helpful because I noticed, oh my gosh, mom, you have a $500 subscription monthly for an anti wrinkle cream that they're going to send you in the mail every month. And by the way, they did send the anti wrinkle cream in the mail every month, but I didn't know that it was $500 and that she actually paid for it for a couple months. Mom would never have needed or ever bought a $500 wrinkle cream if she'd known that that was happening. And now, in more fairness, her skin looks great, but I don't think it's because she was using a $500 wrinkle cream for a couple months before I became aware of it. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Maybe it was worth it. [00:09:52] Speaker C: Perhaps. Nonetheless, I canceled the subscription. Also, I should say that she's living in a pension and Social Security, so maybe $500 a month for an anti wrinkle cream in your 80s. [00:10:06] Speaker B: Well, and if you don't spend the 500 on that, then you've got available funds for the 300amonth on the software support line. [00:10:12] Speaker C: Oh, right, right, right. The fake geek squad that she had called what she thought was a customer support line for help with her computer because she didn't want to wait till I could come over. I did have a full time job and so she had to wait for me for after work. But she called and they of course sold her some kind of software support again, a monthly expense expense that fortunately, when I came over to help her with her computer. I realized that she had signed up for this. And let me tell you, that was not an easy expense to get rid of because the scammers really know what they're doing, especially when it comes to seniors. But what I was able to do is call her credit card company and get that removed. And then that led to, I need to be joined on her credit card accounts or they need to have authorization to talk to me. So now that we have this power of attorney in place, I'm doing my best to make sure that I'm calling every company that has any kind of financial connection to mom to get all of that in place. And, you know, listen, you're going to miss a few here and there, but in general, I think I did a pretty good job of getting all that in place. [00:11:21] Speaker B: You did. And that starts this process of beginning to realize that she's not completely able to manage her affairs independently and leading to having to have those hard discussions about the power of attorney actually going into effect. And was there a moment when you had a conversation with mom that said, okay, I'm taking over now, or by then had she already kind of been into the dementia world and it wasn't necessary to have that conversation? [00:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that it kind of eased into it because to be honest, originally when this started happening, we didn't have a dementia diagnosis. I thought she just was really bad at the computer and she didn't really understand this world of especially the scams that come her way. So I helped her kind of get out of those and then just sort of more subtly took over. We would have every other weekend when I would come over, we would have a day where we went through all of our bills, made sure everything was paid. So we did it together for many years until it was clear that not only could she not do it herself, but she didn't even know that she wasn't doing it herself. You know, she kind of had more of a rapid progression when it came to those kinds of pieces. And by that time I just took it all over and did it all myself. [00:12:43] Speaker B: So there wasn't like incidences where she's like, hey, isn't the credit card bill due? Or hey, I'm supposed to pay this or anything like that, where she was trying to remember that she had to still take care of something but needing your help? [00:12:56] Speaker C: I don't think so. I think that we just sort of phased out of our twice a month check on Saturdays, and eventually it just sort of led to me doing that. And then by that time, she was kind of starting to, you know, live in that dementia world. [00:13:12] Speaker B: And so what exactly? Was there anything specific you did with the attorney to activate the poa or is that something that you were able to just gradually start doing on your own? What defines. I know we're going to talk about this with Russ in a second, but, like, what defined that moment for you and Mom? That it was like, okay, now I'm activating this. [00:13:32] Speaker C: Mom wasn't really a part of that conversation anymore. And for me, once you need to activate a power of attorney, it means someone's pretty incapacitated, which is exactly what the case was. So I was able to call her Visa company and say, I need to. To discuss my mom's account with you. I'd like to be added on as an authorized user. I'm sending you a copy of the power of attorney. And I did that for all of her bills. [00:13:59] Speaker B: And this was Russ guiding you as to these steps that you have to take to exercise the power of attorney? And did he have to send any letters or do anything on his own or. Because all the docs were already set up? It was not necessary. [00:14:13] Speaker C: All the docs were in place. They've been in place for years. And so even though it's a little bit of a hassle to have to send the power of attorney and wait until, you know, all the companies get it and they acknowledge it. It was actually not a complicated process at all because we had done all the work ahead of time, fortunately. [00:14:30] Speaker B: And so when you're sending that power of attorney to the credit card company, that's all you need to do. They review that document, and then they say, okay, or is there any other hoops you had to go through that was it pretty amazing? [00:14:43] Speaker C: I can imagine how challenging it would have been if we didn't have a right. [00:14:46] Speaker B: So this is a testament to the good idea of planning ahead. [00:14:49] Speaker C: Yes. And listen, I get that we were very fortunate. We had a lot of good people guiding us, and not everybody's in that situation. You know, I knew an estate attorney who said, well, let's make sure we have everything in order. Make sure we do this, make sure we do that. I didn't know how to do all those things, but, man, I was grateful that with her cognitive decline taking up so much of our time and effort, it was one piece that I didn't have to worry about, because this would have been unbelievably stressful. What if I couldn't call her credit card company and say, cancel that monthly subscription. And we were stuck with that for months and months more because they didn't have authorization to talk to me. We were fortunate, and it saved us a lot of headache and drama, and we were already in the midst of headache and drama. So having one thing to take off your plate is helpful. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Well, and I think that's a good time to take a break. And when we come back, our sister Julie's going to join us for the discussion with Russell, who will walk us through some of the mechanics of how to deal with all these things. So stick around, and we'll be right back. [00:16:10] Speaker C: And we are back. Today we are meeting with Russell Wise. He is the founder and senior member of Wise and Wise plc. This is a firm that specializes in estate and business planning and trust and probate administration. And, Russ, we are really grateful that you're here with us today. Thank you for taking time to talk to us. Can you just start out by telling us a little bit about your specialty? [00:16:36] Speaker E: Sure can. So our firm specializes in estate planning as well as probate and trust administration. That's the. The. The bulk of our work that we do. We do a little bit of business planning as well, but the bulk of our work is with families, helping them with their either estate planning or with their administration of their trusts and probate after a person passes away. [00:17:02] Speaker C: Great. And can you just tell us why would someone with an aging loved one need to work with an estate attorney? [00:17:10] Speaker E: Great question. So there's a lot of reasons why anyone should have an estate plan, whether you're young or older, and especially as you get older, you want things to be in place if something were to happen to you. So there are two things that we really plan for is one for death, which we all know one day it will reach us, and the other is disability. And that's something we don't want to think about often, because who wants to think about ever becoming disabled and relying on other people or being stuck in a hospital or nursing home or not able to make your own decisions? But it is a really important factor, what we need to consider when we're advising our clients on best paths forward. So, you know, why would an aging person want to have an estate plan? Well, because they're definitely more likely to have a disability in the near future. And if you don't have something in place, then you're leaving it up to chance as far as what will happen, who will make decisions for you, who will have to handle your finances, where you will be living, all those things you want to have more control over today so we can have more flexibility later on if we don't have those things prepared in advance and you are unexpectedly disabled, or of course, if you pass away, that's another situation that we'll talk about. But if you're disabled and you don't have something in place, such as a power of attorney for both financial and medical affairs, then the court has to step in and we have to have court proceedings for a guardianship or a conservatorship or both. So a guardianship is involved in Michigan to handle a person's medical and welfare affairs. So essentially, who's going to make decisions pertaining to where that person will live, their medical care, all decisions pertaining to the well being of that person versus the conservatorship, which pertains only to that person's financial affairs. So normally if a person becomes disabled, we need both of those to take care of all decisions involved in that person's well being. [00:19:24] Speaker C: So when you talk about disabled, I mean, we are really focusing primarily on Alzheimer's dementia. But that's considered a disability, correct? [00:19:34] Speaker E: That is correct. So great question. So, you know, unfortunately, people sometimes lose their memory over time and maybe even not diagnosed as having any kind of dementia or other type of cognitive impairment. However, they're not able to manage their own affairs anymore. They can't go to the bank anymore, or they're making bad decisions. And if we have something in place before this is happening, it allows the family members to step in and hopefully help their parents or their loved one take care of these things without having to worry about the court involvement. And a good example is, let's say a person, you know, is needs help in the banking. You know, they just need help writing checks or taking money out of an account and putting in another investment account. Well, if you don't have something in place, the financial advisor or the bank won't acknowledge you. So you can say, look on my mother's, you know, oldest child, and she trusts me with everything. But the court would still say, no, you have no right to do this. And the banks would say, hands off, we're not going to do anything until we have a court order allowing you to speak to us and allowing you to make decisions on behalf of the person. So it really is very cumbersome and you kind of are stuck in a standstill very often. [00:20:51] Speaker C: So you're referring to a power of attorney, a poa, correct? [00:20:55] Speaker E: That is correct. So there's two types of powers of attorney that people refer to. One is for financial affairs, a Durable power of attorney for financial affairs. The other is a durable power of attorney for medical affairs, often called a patient advocate. [00:21:10] Speaker C: And so ideally, we want our, ourselves really and our loved ones to designate these powers of attorney ahead of time. [00:21:19] Speaker E: I assume for sure. Again, because if you don't. So I always feel the best way to have these documents drafted is to do it when you're, when you're feeling good, when you're not under any stress about a medical condition or you're not going. A lot of times people come to me and they say I'm going on vacation and whatever I need to get done before I go on vacation, which is also stressful, or you unexpectedly have an accident, or you're unexpectedly in the hospital for some reason and all of a sudden you have nothing in place. And that's very problematic and stressful for not only the person there, but also for the family members as well. [00:21:58] Speaker C: Okay, because we were talking about, and Julie, I'll let you jump into this, but you know, ideally you have a, an estate plan in place. I assume that you are trying to advise young, younger, so to speak, younger, healthier people to do that. Right. So Julie, I'll, I'll let you lead that to the next question. [00:22:18] Speaker F: Yeah. So I'm curious, what is the ideal time to set up an estate plan? [00:22:24] Speaker E: So the ideal time is. Well, really anybody who has a family, first of all, should have the most basic estate plan at the very minimum. But even if you don't have a family, if you're single, you still need to have an estate plan in place because you need to plan for your, again, ultimate death or disability. And those things are going to happen. And we want to make sure that we can do that again in such a manner that you're not going to have a stressful situation or another situation where you're at a standstill with either dealing with person's housing or a person's investment accounts or just making decisions pertaining to anything regarding their regular day to day living. So I recommend people having these done any time of their life. You know, when you're an adult, you need to have it done. And again, as you get older, of course it's even more, there's more of a reason to have it done because there's more of a chance you're going to become disabled or die. But everyone should have it done at any stage of their life. [00:23:26] Speaker F: Great. And I wanted you, you mentioned a power of attorney. If you could actually define what that is and tell us how and when it becomes activated. [00:23:37] Speaker E: Yeah. A power of attorney is a document that allows a person to appoint an individual or individuals to essentially step into their shoes and make all decisions regarding any type of financial matter that is pertaining to that person at any time. So whether it be banking, dealing with real property, dealing with your taxes, taking care of investments, managing a person's business, all these things come into play with a power of attorney. Now, there's two types of powers of attorney that can be put in place. There's one called a regular, durable power of attorney, and the other is called a springing power of attorney. So a springing power of attorney operates in the same manner as a regular durable power of attorney. However, the one big caveat is that it cannot be put into place and no one can use it until two physicians place in writing that the person is no longer able to manage his or her own affairs. That is a nice safeguard because, you know, people come to me sometimes and say, look, I love my son Tommy, but he's just not good with money and I don't trust him 100%. So that is a good reason to have that special springing language. Now, the caveat to that also is that it also creates a cumbersome problem sometimes because let's say mom has a power of attorney in place according her son Tommy, and mom breaks her leg and she just needs Tommy to go to the, to the. The bank, take care of a couple of things and take care of some other smaller items. Well, the bank's going to look at her and say, wait a second, Mrs. Jones, you have a springing power of attorney, and unless you have two physicians indicating you're not able to manage your affairs, Tommy can't come in and do anything for you. So I tell people, as long as you trust the person you're appointing as your, what's called, agent, as long as that person is completely trusted, then let's do a regular, durable power of attorney effective upon signing. And that will take. Make it much easier for your family members to take care of things for you. Okay. [00:25:51] Speaker F: And. [00:25:51] Speaker E: Oh, go ahead, sorry factor to consider whether it be again, springing or a simple, regular, durable power of attorney effective upon signing. Okay. [00:26:02] Speaker F: And what other kind of protections does this, the poa, give your senior, like we had, you know, issues or my mom ordered subscription, recurring subscriptions online. It was, you know, she was snookered, basically. And, you know, obviously elder abuse is pervasive. I'm just wondering, you know, to what. To what extent that's. That helps protect against those situations. [00:26:25] Speaker E: So it doesn't necessarily protect her. But what it does, it allows you, as you know her. Her agent to say, wait a second. What is going on here? You've looked at her, whether it be her credit report or a bill that came in. It allows you to contact that entity and say, hey, this has got to stop immediately. And they'll say, well, who are you? Well, I am the agent. I'm the person who's been appointed in this document to take care of my mother's affairs. Essentially, you're stepping into her shoes with anything she can sign her name to. You can go ahead and speak to those people. It's a key into those particular entities, so really can help out a lot with that regard. And let's say you find out that there's someone who is improperly taking money from her, improperly having her sign contracts, you'd also have the ability to file a lawsuit on her behalf, again under the power of attorney, or at least deal with it and talk to people about it with the same being stepping into your mother's shoes, doing that. And it gives you all the rights that she would have because you were now her power of attorney, slash agent. Okay. It's a really important potentially weapon to have in that regard. [00:27:39] Speaker F: Great, thanks. [00:27:40] Speaker E: Okay. [00:27:41] Speaker D: I just want to put a. If I could ask Russ a finer point on that poa. It sounds like there's two different types, and one is pretty specific. You need two doctors to sign off and assuming that's more of a specific diagnosis and a specific moment that someone is declared unfit in a way such that the designated POA can take over. The other one seems a little bit gray or potential for grayness. Like, you know, if mom breaks her leg and she wants her son to be able to go and do stuff for her, how does she then. Is she then responsible for drawing the line on the limits to what he can do on her behalf and managing that while she still has her faculties? And have you ever come in contact with situations where that can be a little bit difficult? Because then the son, in this instance might then think she needs help in other areas, and then she doesn't, and then there's some type of conflict that has to be resolved somehow. Are there some potential. [00:28:39] Speaker E: Yeah, that's there. [00:28:40] Speaker D: They have to watch out for. [00:28:42] Speaker E: That is a good question also. So the good thing about a power of attorney, as long as the person who gives that power of attorney over himself or herself to someone else, as long as they're competent, they can revoke it at any time. So if for some Reason, you know, the parent decides that she does not want her child to take care of her affairs for any reason, whether it be he or she is not listening to her or maybe improperly taking monies out or just doing things that are just not what she was hoping would happen, she can revoke it anytime. Now, the revocation is simple. All she has to do is contact anybody who has that document in their place, whether it be the bank, whether it be an investment advisor, whether it be a nursing home. That can be revoked very simply. But once person becomes disabled, that power of attorney is still in place, though, and they can't. They can't then revoke it once they've been deemed to be unable to manage their own affairs because of incompetency. [00:29:43] Speaker D: Okay, so, Zach, go ahead. Sorry. [00:29:47] Speaker E: So what I was going to say. So I'll give you an example. Let's say, you know, a son or a daughter is really making good decisions on behalf of mom or dad. But mom and dad. Mom or dad doesn't really understand it because they've already lost their cognitive abilities to understand what their child is doing. And they can't revoke it at that point because he or she's already been deemed to be incapacitated at that point. So it wouldn't be an issue as far as that goes. But I will say they're not perfect. So if a person were to revoke the power of attorney even though they didn't understand what they were doing, it could create a gray area. And the bank or the hospital may have some concerns about issues, and they may say, look, we don't know what to do here. And then you're stuck going to court and getting a guardianship. Okay, so there's. It's not perfect at all times, but it really can prevent a lot of that if you do it in advance. So the key here is getting it done. You know, Julian, one of the questions. Another issue that maybe would kind of answer some of your questions is also, if you do it in advance way before a person's disabled, there's less of a likelihood that a bank or an institution will be suspect about that document. Sometimes what happens is a person comes into a bank and they've got a power of attorney and it's valid, but mom or dad just signed it yesterday, and the bank automatically has concerns, and they think, wait a second, there's something going on here. And it's much harder for the bank to accept it that way. And the bank isn't. Doesn't have to accept it. Bank can say, you know what? I know it's valid. You signed it, your mother signed it. But we're not going to accept it here, and you're going to have to go to court anyway. And sometimes we can get around that by the client will call me up and they'll say, look, I'm at the bank with my, my father and they're not accepting this power of attorney. And I help to explain to them why we have it in place. And it may give the bank a little bit of some solace knowing that there's someone who has drafted it and there's some legitimacy to it. [00:31:58] Speaker D: Okay, got it. And so, and I'm just trying to make sure that if anybody has concern. [00:32:04] Speaker B: Because I think the idea that you. [00:32:06] Speaker D: Should get a power of attorney early in the process of your life and, and earlier than most people believe is something that they might want to alleviate some fears regarding. So, like if the POA is out there, your family member can't just run roughshod over your whole life and start doing crazy stuff. I mean, especially while you still have your cognitive abilities. You haven't been diagnosed by those two doctors that said you're disabled. You have to approve of any steps that this person might have to take. You have those protections in place. There's, there's nothing to fear. Is that right? [00:32:41] Speaker E: Well, not necessarily. So, you know, person insurer pointing has a fiduciary duty to do whatever is in the best interest of the person who's appointed him or her. Okay, so let's say your mother appoints you as her agent. You can't go to you, you can't go and utilize your mother's funds without her, without her best interest in mind. Okay, but you still could. So without your mother's knowledge, you could go and take her money out and go to the casino. And people have done that before, unfortunately. And you would be in breach of your duty. And in fact, in Michigan, if you did that without your mother's knowledge and it wasn't for her benefit, there's a statute in Michigan which allows the states and the prosecutor to come after you and to go after you for triple damages. [00:33:39] Speaker D: And they instructed you to put a thousand dollars on red, you'd be okay. [00:33:45] Speaker E: That's true. It's interesting. Those things happen. And you gotta, that's why you gotta be careful who you appoint as your power of attorney. Your agent. We had a client many years ago and she, she had her son not only as a power of attorney, but also she named him on her she named him as a co owner on her property, which is a no, no, never want to do that. And he wound up going and somehow obtaining a second mortgage on the property that he never paid on. She lost the property. That was her only asset. And he literally was a choir boy. And it was awful. I felt terrible for her and it was bad all the way around. But. But those things happen and we want to try to avoid them if at all possible. So the caveat there, or the takeaway I should say is you need to really trust who you are naming as your agent. Now again, if you don't have that trust, what I was saying is that's when a springing power of attorney more of a hassle to work with. But it has that protection for you though. Okay. [00:34:56] Speaker C: And you can. Sorry, Andrew, I'm just going to jump in for a second. You can obviously revisit your designations if you are not yet disabled. [00:35:04] Speaker E: For sure. For sure. Many times people will come to me and say, hey, you know, I know you drafted this up for us 4, 5, 6, 7, 10 years ago. I want to make some tweaks to it. I want to change this person because I no longer either I'm not, you know, this daughter or this son or this friend of mine is no longer my close confidence anymore. And I want to point someone else. You can always modify those things. [00:35:27] Speaker C: And I was just thinking in terms of my own that, you know, I originally designated my siblings, which is great. But you know, for instance, my sister's older than me, so I to think about, well, wait, wait a minute. I, you know, so then I started to think about the next generation, my nieces, because they may be the ones who are going to be around to make those decisions. [00:35:48] Speaker E: That is, that is a very good point. And a lot of people, as they get older, they appoint younger family members for that very reason. And a lot of times what you do also, you can appoint, you know, the older person still. But there's a, you know, there's an altar that says if this person is not willing or unable to act, then the person named as number two or three can step in. So there are lots of ways we can tailor the document to a person's concerns and make sure that it'll work. [00:36:18] Speaker D: And what if something, what if somebody, what if somebody has no one? Like, we're fortunate enough to have robust families and siblings and moms and dads. And I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who are alone or especially when they get much older, are living Alone and don't have anybody left around them. How do they get protected when they get disabled? [00:36:41] Speaker E: That is a. Is a concern for sure. And I usually tell people or ask them, do you have a close friend or a clergy or someone that you could appoint? And sometimes it takes a conversation with, you know, that person going to their church or their synagogue, even though they don't go there very often and say, hey, you know, I don't have anyone in my family or friends that I trust. Can I appoint you? And it's sad. Normally I find that they can always. They usually can find somebody, whether it be a neighbor or someone that they have some kind of relationship with. It's not always possible, though, and which is sad, but it's something that. That if it wasn't in place, if they don't have somebody, then at some point, if there's no one involved or there's no one appointed through a document and the person does become disabled, then the court gets step. Steps in and they appoint a public conservator, which is, you know, it's called a public administrator, which is not the best scenario either. Okay, so you hope that never happens, but it's. It can happen. [00:37:51] Speaker D: And so that. That leads us into the. Our last couple questions here, which is, so what if you do have a robust family and for some reason someone was obstinate and didn't do all these things, and next thing you know, they're disabled? [00:38:03] Speaker B: There is no poa. [00:38:04] Speaker D: There is no estate plan. [00:38:06] Speaker B: What do you do now, Russ, when. [00:38:08] Speaker D: They call you and say, oh, that. [00:38:10] Speaker E: Happens and happens too often. But what happens in that regard is the family members who want to step in and take care of mom or dad or aunt or uncle, whoever it may be, they need to go to the probate court and file a petition for both guardianship and conservatorship. And that process entails filing a petition with the court. The court then will have what's called a guardian ad litem appointed, which is basically the eyes and ears of the court. They will. Then it's an attorney, typically, who's been appointed by the particular judge's office. They go meet with the person who is supposed to have the guardianship or conservatorship over him or her, and they make a recommendation to the court, and then they have a court proceeding on it, usually within about sometimes three weeks, four weeks, five weeks case. And it's a. It's a public hearing, so there's nothing private about it. So that's kind of a. Something I tell People, you know, I don't know if you want, you know, strangers knowing what's going on with your family affairs and everything that's going on with your, your financial affairs. Those are all things that are public knowledge once you go to the court system. So. But that's a necessary evil if we don't have these documents in place. So it's really, you know, it really makes sense to have these documents put in place when you're not disabled, when you're feeling good, when you just want to plan and make sure that if something, gosh forbid, does happen, you've got all your ducks in a row and you can avoid that because it's going to help out your family immensely in the long run. [00:39:41] Speaker D: Is there some type of emergency order that can come into effect if something sudden happens and somebody's disabled and the documents aren't. [00:39:50] Speaker B: They're set up and it's going to. [00:39:51] Speaker D: Take weeks, if not months, it sounds like, to go through the courts, but start making decisions for them. So how does that work? [00:39:58] Speaker E: Good example. Let's say a person is hospitalized and they need authorization from the doctor, needs authorization to have brain surgery. You would then need to go to the court and ask for an immediate emergency hearing. And they usually can do that within a day or two, depending on the situation, depending on what judge is assigned to. But it can be done. It's just a very. It's a tense, it's sometimes very costly procedure that, again, we like to avoid because it's just, you want to have control over what's going to happen to you. You want to know who's going to make those decisions for you. You want to make sure that those decisions are made by the people that you trust and you love as opposed to a stranger. And another reason to have it in place also is, let's say you've got three children, like, in your family, and you want to make sure that your family are not fighting over mom or dad's care and making sure that the person that you trust the most in the family to make those decisions is the one that will actually be the one who will make those decisions and take the necessary actions for you as well. Okay. As opposed to three kids fighting in court and who knows what's going to happen? And then when the kids can't get along, then the court appoints again, a public administrator who. Then it's even worse for the, for the, for your mother or father because you got a stranger making decisions for you, which is never good. [00:41:25] Speaker D: Yeah, we feel very fortunate that we're generally aligned on the big decisions that we've had to make about mom. [00:41:31] Speaker B: And we heard from people that we've. [00:41:35] Speaker D: Worked with at assisted living facilities that. [00:41:37] Speaker B: They say that's actually kind of in the minority. [00:41:40] Speaker D: Two thirds of families, they estimated, not get a. [00:41:44] Speaker E: Truly. [00:41:44] Speaker D: It's not a scientific number, but generally that was their experience at that facility. [00:41:50] Speaker E: It's interesting because a lot of families don't get along for whatever reason. And, you know, another example of why you want to have the documents in place is because if you have families that don't get along and you're the person who wants to appoint one of your kids for whatever reason, you want that person to be the one to make the decision. And if you've done so in advance, then the kids may get along better as well because they know that you. You said that child A was going to be the person to make those decisions, and they're going to respect, hopefully, mom or dad's decision to, you know, make that person the one in charge. So a lot of reasons to keep those things in place early on. [00:42:29] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm going to add on to that that I feel so fortunate that the three of us are aligned, but I've heard so many stories from my own close friends about, you know, people not honoring the power of attorneys and then, you know, and people ending up in court or not honoring a dnr and then they end up with a terrible situation. So, you know, listen, it is not a blessing that our mother has dementia, but it sure is a blessing that we're all in agreement and very careful in terms of our planning for her, because we just know how terrible it would be to have to be in that situation. [00:43:07] Speaker E: Well, you're right. Your mother is so fortunate to have the three of you get along. And that's a testament to not only the three of you, but also to your mother. She raised you right. So doesn't always happen, but it makes things so much better for her, and that's the reason why you want to do it. The most important person in this whole equation, obviously, is your mom. And by having her family members get along and make decisions together, if at all possible, you know, it's a blessing for sure. And hopefully you'll continue to take that same route going forward. [00:43:41] Speaker D: We hope so. [00:43:42] Speaker C: That's our plan. [00:43:44] Speaker D: Let's go. Let's get you out of here on this. Russell, any idea that you. Anything that any ballpark or something that you can share with the audience about potential costs that are involved with getting these things set up PoAs and general estate plans and what they have to expect, for sure. [00:44:01] Speaker E: So, you know, it depends on what the person's concerns are when they come to me, what their. Their family situation is, what their asset situation is. You know, for a single person who doesn't have a need for a trust, you know, trust is a more complicated document. And, you know, it's very helpful for many, many people to have a trust in place. Not everybody needs them. It just depends if it's a single person with just a will and some powers of attorney probably cost anywhere from 750 to 1250 for a very simple plan. If we're utilizing a trust plan with powers of attorney and some other documents, and we have what's called a pullover will, and it's like about 20, 20, 2:50, I think, is what the rate we're charging these days, kind of. Again, it depends on what else is out there. We have to sometimes charge more, depending if they have business interests, they have other properties, or if they have no properties. Those are all things that come into play. And then for a couple, then it's about double that. You know, normally about 3,000 to 5,000, depending on what's going on. And also if they have large estates, then it's a different scenario as well because we have draft up two separate trusts as opposed to what's called a joint trust. So there are different factors involved. And we kind of tailor our estate plans and our pricing based on each client's individual needs and concerns going forward. Okay. [00:45:33] Speaker C: It sounds like it would save you a lot of money in the long run if you end up having to be in probate court or getting emergency orders and battling it out. It seems like it's money well spent ahead of time. [00:45:45] Speaker E: And I'll tell you this just for a really basic. Just to do a power of attorney for medical affairs, then one separate for financial affairs. I mean, that's so inexpensive. 350, $400 out the door, as opposed to all the mess you've got with probate and all the other angst and concerns you have for the family. So it really is money well spent. [00:46:06] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, especially when you consider all of the other issues involved in taking care of a loved one. It would seem to me, and I can say this, having gone through this with my mom, it feels for us really good to know that that piece is taken care of when there's so much uncertainty coming our way. And I feel grateful to not be worrying about those pieces for my mom. So we're beyond grateful that you spent your time with us today, and we really appreciate your expertise. [00:46:33] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:46:33] Speaker E: Thank you for inviting me out. And I love talking about this stuff. So if you want to talk at any time, let me know. [00:46:38] Speaker C: Thank you. And we'll be right back. We're on audio, too, and that shows. [00:47:12] Speaker B: We'Re recording, but the line isn't moving. Oh, there it is. It is moving. [00:47:16] Speaker D: See, we can keep all these things. [00:47:17] Speaker C: I mean, we could make a whole blooper reel of us. [00:47:20] Speaker B: We do bloopers within the podcast. If everybody's listening to this, if we haven't edited out. Anyway, we are back. A very illuminating discussion with Russell, and one of the interesting takeaways that I took from our discussion is that the law can only take you so far. It's important to get these documents in place, and the POA is of crucial importance. But in the end, also, you have to be working with people that you love and trust. And so for most families, there probably is someone who they love and trust, whether it's a relative or a direct son or daughter. And for those whose family members are already gone, there may be a neighbor or a clergy. Somebody who you trust is really the partner that you have to get involved with when you're doing these documents. And so I can understand how some people might have some trepidation in giving a POA to even a son or daughter that they may not have a great relationship with. That's a relevant concern. And it's important at least to deal with these things early, get those things settled. But also think about who is in your close world and who should be entrusted with these things. It is a big decision. In our case, it was easy. It absolutely should have been, Karen, and we're thankful for that. Thank you for doing that. [00:48:42] Speaker C: It's a lot of having lived a responsibility. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Yes, it is. And so that's just, it's. That's. Besides the legal stuff, that's also important stuff to consider. [00:48:51] Speaker C: I would also say that I would imagine that people put off doing estate planning because it's expensive. And that is true. It isn't free. And listen, I'm sure there are plenty of ways that you can find, you know, different price points to work with. But I will just say that it is the single item that mom did that has made life easier for us. And life is not easy. It's challenging taking care of a loved one who has Alzheimer's, especially for us. Our second round of this. But I will also say that had she not had these pieces in place. I cannot imagine how much harder this would be. And your goal is not to make things harder on yourself. Your goal is to try to figure out. How can we figure out what we can do now? Sometimes in early stages or, you know, for me, I already have my plans in place. I have every last thing taken care of. I did this 10 years ago and then I just revisited and made some changes. So I know that whoever is going to end up caring for me, they've got that covered. And I think it's the number one piece of advice I would give to anybody. Get these affairs in order. Do not leave things to chance. Don't put yourself in a position where you're hoping that the court's gonna take care of something last minute, because that is just leading to potential disaster. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Indeed. And I think that's a good place to leave it. Once again, we should definitely leave it. [00:50:20] Speaker C: On leading to potential disaster. That's the goal we're looking for. [00:50:24] Speaker B: That's a great way to leave it. [00:50:26] Speaker C: Gloom and doom and hey, let's play have mom play songs. [00:50:28] Speaker B: We're trying to gloom and doom. Shame our audience into doing the right thing here. [00:50:32] Speaker C: That's fair. We'll perk it up at the end when mom plays her closing song. [00:50:36] Speaker B: You'll hear that in a couple seconds. Always hang on for the closing song from Mom. In the meantime, if you have any comments or questions or are willing to share your stories and issues that you need help with, please email us at ifitsnot1gmail.com because as we all know, if. [00:50:54] Speaker C: It'S not one thing, it's Joanna for us and someone you love for you. [00:51:02] Speaker A: I see trees of blue Red rises too I see them all for me and you and I say to myself what a wonderful world Good skies of blue I see skies of blue Clouds of white and clouds of white the bright sunny days and dark sacred nights and I say to myself Town, what a wonderful world.