Episode 20: Karen Therapy With Karen Faith Gordon

[00:00:04] Speaker A: You, [00:00:22] Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the podcast. If it's not one thing, it's Joanna, starring your hosts. That's me and Karen Edelson, my sister. Welcome, everybody. [00:00:36] Speaker C: God, no, that's awful. [00:00:38] Speaker B: I like it. [00:00:39] Speaker C: Okay, we should. [00:00:40] Speaker B: We should tag that and have that be the professional announcement in the beginning of it every single time. Maybe not. Maybe not. But it felt fun. [00:00:52] Speaker C: Okay, if it felt fun. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Have you ever announced anything over any type of recording before? Do you have any experience. Oh, in this gig in your past life, ever? [00:01:02] Speaker C: I mean, this is my first podcast I've recorded, so. But I'm trying to think, like, have I. Have I done that with other. I don't know. I guess not. So I will say that the. The podcasts that I do like the most tend to be the ones that involve chatter, and then maybe they lead into an opening. I almost wonder, maybe we need Joanna to have to write a theme song. That would be fun. [00:01:31] Speaker B: We could do that. I think that's the next. Again, we haven't done that yet, audience. But that's. The next phase is to. Instead of the piano playing, let's just get into some guided sing alongs and see what happens there. I think there's some content opportunities that will abound. [00:01:48] Speaker C: All right, well, speaking of sing alongs, good transition. I don't know if I mentioned this in a previous pod, but, you know, our Sundays at Barkside have now morphed into a little sing along that happened this week, which was pretty funny. We went, obviously, Sunday afternoon, and they have these big screens on the inside area where they're playing baseball games, obviously. And I don't even know that mom has an understanding that that's a baseball game. But I've noticed this the last two weeks that she sits down at the little bench where we station her, and she starts singing Take me out to the Ball Game. And this is the second time she's done that. And dogs gather. It's almost like it's her little gathering songs for the pooches. And it's pretty funny. It's very sweet. [00:02:39] Speaker B: It's like a clarion call to mom, basically. [00:02:42] Speaker C: Maybe that's pretty funny. But speaking of Sunday, I wanna just talk about something that happened for mom and me this Sunday, Mother's Day. So we. [00:02:54] Speaker B: Happy Mother'. Happy Mother's Day, everybody. [00:02:56] Speaker C: Happy Mother's Day. To everybody who is some version of a mother. Because I think that we can agree that motherhood comes in lots of different ways. And, you know, that caretaking piece really factors into what we Think about as mothers. So in that sense, I've always said, [00:03:11] Speaker B: and at the risk of being reverse sexist, number one job in the world, I feel Mom. [00:03:17] Speaker C: Oh, that's very sweet. Well, so speaking of that, you know, mom primarily is at home, and people come to visit her, and maybe we take her out here and there, but in general, she doesn't go a lot of places anymore. So I was just beyond touched when my friend Randall, who is one of my newer than the last year and a half or so, Randall and Paul, this delightful couple I met through yoga, they live in my neighborhood. And Randall invited Mom and I to come to their apartment for a Mother's Day gathering that they were having with some friends and family. And my immediate reaction was, oh, gatherings are challenging. You know, she doesn't really engage that much in conversation. It's hard to maneuver her. But then I realized, well, first of all, they live in the loft building next to the yoga studio. So there's handicapped parking right out front, and it's an easy access to the building, an elevator to their building, and then there, everything's on one floor. So the accessibility piece was easy. But I thought, well, what is that going to be like socially for her? But I was so honored that they invited us that I thought, yeah, we're going. And then here's the beauty. In addition to that lovely invite, on the way in, we ran into my friend Alyssa, who you might remember from, I think it was episode seven on the podcast. And she was coming out of the yoga studio with her mom, and Randall had come down to meet us. And so they came up to Randall's apartment as well. And I popped mom in a chair and put a little dishcloth over her while she ate a cookie. And they have a really sweet dog named Rogan, who figured out that mom was gonna drop a lot of that cookie on the ground. So Rogan was really happy to sit beside her, but she was just so happy being there. And I kind of felt a little teary about the fact that she doesn't really get invited places. She doesn't know that she's missing out. I think that always these issues are more mine than hers. But it was so delightful to just have her be a part of watching all the activity go on, and what a nice Mother's Day celebration that was for her and for me. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're pretty good at dealing with that tension. There's obviously the issue of she's not gonna know that she missed a certain experience. And after it happens, she's not gonna remember that she had that experience. But there is real joy in the moment of experiencing it, and there's value there. And she clearly enjoys it when she's there. But little things like letting her skip going up to Julie's for Passover or attending the Garrett Space fundraiser coming up, those are things that, like, are really difficult to pull off for all of us. And is it worth her momentary pleasure that she gets from it? I think it's okay in those cases to say maybe not. But there's plenty of other things we do that put her in front of other people and allow her to have those moments of pleasure. And, of course, I think that's important to continue to do that. And it's nice that she can still enjoy it. [00:06:28] Speaker C: Yeah, it's definitely worth it. She loved it. So, to all you listeners out there, feel free to invite Joanna over, especially speaking of things. [00:06:36] Speaker B: That's a great segue about our topic today, which is mental health for seniors with dementia and their caregivers. And the interesting thing, we're going to get into this deeper with our wonderful guest, Karen Faith Gordon, who's a social worker. She'll tell you specifically her title and what she does, but she deals with on a daily basis, issues that people who are aging are dealing with, sensing that they are in decline and dealing with the mental challenges of that awareness, but also the family members and hired caregivers around them who are dealing with caring for those people. And that's a big, important job. [00:07:21] Speaker C: And. [00:07:21] Speaker B: And we haven't really talked about those details yet, and so look forward to having this conversation with her. And as we always like to do, share a little bit of our mom's experience. And the interesting thing is there's not that much to share because we tried. We'll get into a lot of the details of this story with Karen, but we tried to suggest some mental health stuff for her when she was moving into the assisted home and did it once. It didn't really work out. The therapist who she had seen previously and knew her also agreed. Maybe it's not the best value for her anymore. And it's interesting because, like, if you're going to do the work of therapy, you have to kind of, like, remember the work that you've done and retain those lessons and then apply them. A lot of that work just can't be done anymore if you're someone with dementia. So there's different challenges that arise, and we're going to get into how to address those and some other tools that are still Very useful for people who are dealing with this stuff. [00:08:21] Speaker C: Yeah. And I do agree that I think that when I think about mental health and therapy in general, I'm a big proponent of asking for help and seeking help and finding the right help. And I think for me, I've really needed to spend a lot of time talking about my role as caregiver in therapy for years, initially with dad and then obviously with mom, because I often feel, I guess, a profound sadness, sense of doom. You know, what's coming, what's. What, what horrific event is. Is going to befall us next. When the fact is that you're so much better at this than I am, that you are really good at living in the. You know, this is where we are right now and things are okay. I tend to catastrophize what could be coming up in the future. And so having someone. I mean, I really love that my therapist would say to me, wow, those seem like really valid concerns. Are they happening right now? And I have to say no. And sometimes just having a voice of reason for the caregiver and also a voice of comfort of yes, it is reasonable for you to feel that way. And how do we tackle those kinds of thoughts, doing that with a professional or even with trusted friends and family, having an outlet. I don't know how people navigate their way through the caregiving world without it. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Agreed completely on all that. All right, let's get into it. In a moment, we'll be joined by Karen Faith Gordon. In the meantime, enjoy. Mom. [00:10:09] Speaker C: Please be true. [00:10:16] Speaker A: Another words tell me too. [00:10:52] Speaker B: All right. Sorry, I just had to start pressing record there. We like to do a little rolling start sometimes, Karen, because I think what you guys are just talking about is very important. I was also not just. Cause my friend Karen, Faith Gordon, and my sister Karen are both Karens. I was a bit outraged and yeah, I'm gonna use the word outrage. That this was a thing. That all of a sudden they decided to take someone's name because of like one or two people who were a little annoying and high maintenance. And now that's a metaphor. Well, and also disrespectful to people with that name. It's terrible. [00:11:24] Speaker C: Karen, I love that you phrased it that way, that our parents lovingly gave us that name. And the interesting thing is that among I have a group of seven women who are my. My lifelong closest friends. And of seven of us, three of us are named Karen, which is a pretty high percentage in a small group. Now, I will say that I taught public school for 30 years. And in my 30 years, I only had one student named Karen. So I am assuming that the Karens who caused the trouble are somewhat in my generation, which appears to be older than your generation, but still. Yes, you're right. You just picked a random name and decided that this would be the. The name to signify really inappropriately behaved women. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah. No, it's terrible to take something innately beautiful by nature of it being a part of someone's essence of who, you know, who we were brought into the planet to be, and then creating demon, like weaponizing it in this really awful way. I really never got on board. I wouldn't watch that, like, because I was so. I was so struck. Like, it felt so like a personal affront, which is something that I work very hard to not take things personally. It's something I would imagine all the time. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Yes. [00:12:49] Speaker A: Agreements, number one thing, don't take things personally. But. But anyway, it still was the way the world is nowadays, as we all know, with social media and all the different forms of communication that people have to take a name and create a negativity around it, I thought was really just terrible. [00:13:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Outrageous. Thank you for sharing that with me. I appreciate the solidarity. It is funny that when I. I have a complicated Greek salad order, and so when I call for carry out and I. I need this on the side and I want my onions burnt and I want this chopped, I don't use my name. [00:13:30] Speaker A: I use my middle salad. [00:13:32] Speaker C: I say it's Elizabeth, my middle name, which is. Happens to be a very beautiful name. How can we mess with that? But I deliberately do it because, you know, when I give my real name, they say, of course. Of course. Which is heartbreaking. [00:13:47] Speaker A: I know. How did they do. Did they use an I instead of an E for a significance? [00:13:54] Speaker C: I think that my parents just thought that was clever, which I think is so funny because it's such an incredibly popular name in my generation. And growing up, I just felt, well, you're just making this more complicated because I can't buy those personalized little bracelets that are hanging on the rack. And I always have to correct people on the spelling. And I mean in every official document, even my teaching certificate, I had to send it back because they misspelled my name. And I thought, well, really, if you were really up for something challenging, you could have maybe just picked a different name. This didn't seem to solve that problem. But today. And it is funny that when people say, oh, well, you're not the Karen they're talking about, you spell your name differently. And I think, well, people don't know that. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Right? [00:14:41] Speaker B: They don't know that. No, they don't. [00:14:43] Speaker C: Right. Well, anyway, I do appreciate that there are lovely Karens out there, and you are one of them. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Thank you. Same. [00:14:51] Speaker B: And let this be the ushering in of a new era where Karens are known for being laid back and smart, intelligent, compassionate, productive members of society, not at all high maintenance, not at all annoying. And let that era begin today on this podcast. No pressure. [00:15:11] Speaker C: There we go. I like it. [00:15:12] Speaker A: I like it. [00:15:15] Speaker C: Well, Karen, first of all, I want to clarify because you go by Karen Faith Gordon, correct? [00:15:21] Speaker A: That is my given name, yes. [00:15:23] Speaker C: Okay. I ask because when I, you know, when I Google you, I find you in different ways. And so I wanted to make sure that I'm giving you the correct name in your introduction. But actually, I think it would be most delightful if you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us just a little bit about your background, who you are, what you do, how you got into your field. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Thank you. Well, I am Karen Faith Gordon, and yes, that is my given name. I've been asked, how did you come up with that name? My parents did, and I'm very grateful for that. I am a licensed clinical social worker. The scope of my work focuses on aging. We are all aging. And for me, it. It's been a lifelong or well, maybe lifelong passion, as I said that I can hear in my head. People used to call me as a child an old soul. I was always very shy and more of a wallflower, the observer. And I don't know if that's what. What prompted people to call me an old soul. Yet that's what I. What people, adults in my life referenced me as. And so maybe that I. How I became so passionate about the work I do working with older adults, I think comes from the benefit, incredible gift I had of having four grandparents active in my life for well into my adulthood. So I'm very, very blessed that way. They're no longer here yet. That was a gift in my life of having adults who were actively engaged and interested in me and invested in me as a person. And so I, unlike people, there are people who are in the field of geriatric work and aging because of their experiences with being a caregiver or watching a decline and being, you know, in that space of witness to that decline. And while I have witnessed decline in people that I love, my passion for this work, I think is much more born out of a love of what's possible in the Aging process when we are active and thriving throughout our life. [00:17:40] Speaker C: Wow, that's amazing. How, how long did your grandparents live? [00:17:47] Speaker A: My great grandmother lived till 101, so I got to know her. So that, and she was a spitfire, so that was pretty awesome. And all four of my grandparents were at my wedding, and two of my four grandparents knew my, my eldest child. So, I mean, really, I'm very fortunate. I was in my late 30s, early 40s. Yeah. So very fortunate that way. [00:18:13] Speaker C: My gosh. So your work primarily focuses on dementia patients and, or I should say aging patients and their families, is that correct? [00:18:26] Speaker A: Yes. And, and that's where the scope has really broadened since I started my practice, because I, I. And where I stopped referring to myself as a geriatric social worker because the word geriatric is something that most people are somewhat resistant to. It's kind of like that's where we turn off the ears and move on to something else because we, most people don't want to talk about their aging and mortality. And so while I do work with elder older adults, I have clients in their 90s. Yes. And for the most part, they're active agers, you know, and so they're, they just happen to be in that elder part of their adulthood. But then what's happened in my practice is more and more, I'm seeing people who, who are more like me, like in their, they can be in their 50s, they might be younger, in their 40s. They, because their parents have an earlier onset diagnosis or because they chose perhaps to start their family at maybe a later time in their life. And so now it's coinciding with changes in their parents while they're raising their own kids. So there's multiple different complexities that come before me. You know, blended families where adult children are, you know, blending at an adult stage of life and coping with a decline in their parent or their step parent, and how those families can work together to create optimal aging for those parents and for themselves, frankly, to all be on the same page and what that looks like. So, yes, I came into this work with a passion for working with older adults. And what I find is that I'm really always, always working within a family unit because it's not just dementia. It could be a number of things. I mean, Parkinson's is probably the second highest case, the diagnosis that I see. Dementia, Parkinson's. Of course, there's Parkinson's related dementia. Then there's also grief and loss and cancer diagnoses and what it looks like to move through that Cancer diagnosis and then pass away and then perhaps work with the spouse of the person who passed away, you know, so I'm coming to find all these gifts in these conversations, because being able to know the people and really start to. And to have built that rapport, even after they're gone, their person still has someone to talk to about their loved one who has some foundational knowledge of who that person was. [00:21:07] Speaker C: I know that's amazing. What an incredible practice and how greatly needed it is in today's world. Yeah. [00:21:16] Speaker B: Yeah. There's so many angles to that that I look forward to us getting into one of them. I just wanted. Because it seems like there's the point of view of trying to help someone who is older and dealing with issues relating to their condition, but also the family and caregivers around them and just want to maybe start by bouncing you. Bouncing this off you with something that happened with mom, and maybe you can talk more about what this means and if you encountered it as well. Like when we started to see our mom's decline into dementia and needing to go to Anthology, you know, which is right around the corner from you, and, like, and go in there, we thought that whole transition because she had had a fall, and then she was in rehab, and then she went right into the facility, and it advised to us that that was the right thing to do. And we thought, I should note that [00:22:12] Speaker C: her dementia obviously has progressed significantly. At that time, she certainly was suffering from dementia, but not to the extent she is now. [00:22:20] Speaker B: And she had been seeing from time to time a therapist. I think we would call her a therapist. Right. Not a psychiatrist, actually. [00:22:27] Speaker C: No, she actually was a psychiatrist. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Okay, Psychiatrist. [00:22:31] Speaker C: Talk therapy with her. [00:22:32] Speaker B: And we thought that maybe it would be useful for her to just have a session with her. And she wasn't seeing her, like, every week, but every once in a while she would check in. And so we did bring her to see her. And, you know, through no fault of the psychiatrist, you know, at the end of this session, we asked mom how to go, and she's like, yeah, it was fine. You know, she didn't really have much to say about it. But the psychiatrist said it sounds like she didn't really enjoy her time or didn't find it very useful and didn't really recommend her coming back to see her. And maybe that had something to do with mom being having a more difficult time articulating her feelings at this time. But it almost felt like there was a moment where that interaction with a psychiatrist or therapist, like she was kind of Past being helped by that. And I don't know if that's true or not, or if. If there's that moment that you observe with certain clients where it's like, there's only so much I can do, or if that. Is this a common experience that. That you've encountered? [00:23:38] Speaker A: It's a great question, and I appreciate you giving that context because yes, it's a yes. And yes, there are times where people. I can think of two. As you were talking, two came right to my mind. One was a son who brought his mother to see. See me, and the other is a husband who brought his wife to see me. And in both cases. Well, no, let me differentiate. In the case of the mother, my sense was that she was not retaining what was needed to create a therapeutic experience that was going to be helpful in that. Typically, we want to be able to have some capacity to learn a tool or a strategy or. You mentioned the word. Be able to articulate and express what we're feeling so that we can then process that and talk about it and then move on to what's next. With this particular woman, she was absolutely lovely, yet I think the son was seeking much more out of that therapy than she was, for sure. And then I could provide, realistically, given where she was cognitively. So there can be that disconnect that can only be realized once I've met the person in. In person, you know, So I met with this and I explained it to the son, and I said, you know, I really think she would benefit from a home visit or a friendly visitor, like through the church or through a local agency that has those kinds of. Kinds of volunteers that go out and do those friendly visits because it would be an outlet for her. But I didn't think that coming to me as therapy. I told him honestly, to bill insurance, there's got to be a goal and an objective, and I've got to show what we're working on. And I didn't feel like I could do that with that particular case. And in the situation with the husband and the wife, it's really, really one of the most challenging things I see. And it's. It's a snowflake disease. So every single one looks different. For people who are diagnosed yet don't. Aren't witnessing or experiencing themselves in a way that can have them accept what's happening. In other words, every few minutes it's like, well, why are we here again? Oh, I have, you know, and it's so, again, to come back and what. What are we Working on, like, then we get to look at. What are those? I said to the husband, we get an ecosystem. He gets to be built here, whereby there is meaningful stimulation in her life such that not only is she engaged in a way that nourishes her, it also gives him peace of mind and more importantly, respite from being the 24, 7, boots on the ground, you know, guy in the trenches, meeting every single need. But that's challenging because it means, what does that look like? Does it look like a caregiver? There's resistance to a caregiver. Does it look like moving? Oh, we're not ready to move, you know, so these are the conversations that I kind of hash out with families on a daily basis. [00:26:53] Speaker B: It's funny that you mentioned that because like, we did turn to that having rabbinical visits while she was there in the home and other great Jewish family services visits, like people coming over and playing music. And we have, you know, we have someone also comes and hangs out with her a few hours every week just to go around, drive and get for ice cream. And those seem to be very beneficial to her just to be able to spend time one on one with someone and hang out. [00:27:20] Speaker C: Yes, it's true. I was. I'm. I. For listeners who are avid listeners, they will know the story that I have discovered Barkside Dog park in Southfield. They also have one in Detroit, but it's a huge indoor outdoor dog facility that I'm just going to tell you, put it on your list and recommend it. My mother is a dog lover, but she can't have a dog anymore, even though she grew up with them. And every Sunday during my. I call it my shift just because it's my chance to give my brother time off. But I'm with my mom every Sunday from 2 to 5 and we go to Barkside and we sit there and play with other people's dogs, not our own. And my mom has become the local celebrity of Barkside Dog Park. We walk in and everyone says, hi, Joanna, it's so nice to see you. People walk up to us and say, I'd like you to meet my dog. Like, my mother is blessing their dog. She's like the Pope of Barkside. But it is, I notice, such a spectacular experience for her to be connecting in whatever way she's connecting. Because these connections, while delightful with the dogs, often lead to human connections and as well. And you're right. Does it provide some respite for us? Yes. And it brings us joy knowing that she's happy in These situations, it's almost like that concept of pet therapy, which, you know, to me just seems invaluable. But I was thinking about, as you were talking, that it would make sense. I mean, I'm thinking of my perspective as a caregiver and how much therapy I have needed to move myself from the position of daughter, which I really no longer am, if I'm being honest, into the position of caregiver. And I would imagine that so much of your work must be related to those kinds of conversations with family members, with caregivers. So I'm wondering, have you noticed that there are certain common issues that caregivers ask for help with from you? And are there typical kinds of conversations that go on in these sessions that could benefit us in this world we're living in? [00:29:31] Speaker A: For sure. I'm. This just came up with, with another client who said. Which surprised me because, again, I'm in these conversations all day. So I, I, There is, I admit, a tendency for me to forget that not everybody is talking about what I'm talking about all day. Isn't everybody talking about. [00:29:49] Speaker C: Right. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Dementia and dying? [00:29:52] Speaker C: We feel the same way. Aren't you talking about your elderly dementia patient? Because this is all we talk about. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Right, right. So. But the. He echoed what so many people say to me when I'll say something like, well, of course, this is, you know, I, I hear this from a lot of people. Just a statement like that elicits this. Wait, other people, wait, I'm not the only one. And, oh, gosh, the affirmation of not being alone on this journey, that feels like the most alone journey of their life. And knowing that there are others and that I can be a voice, bring a voice to that for them, because that alone gives them this sense of, okay, okay, I can do this. I'm not alone. Yeah, yeah. [00:30:44] Speaker C: I mean, shameless plug. This is why we created this podcast. We really needed a community of people to here. You are not alone in this journey. And often when you hear stories that are so similar to your own, it brings about, for, I can say for myself, probably for Andrew, sort of a sense of normalcy and in a very not normal world. [00:31:07] Speaker A: Right, exactly. And that really segues into, you know, the caregiver identity. There's a caregiver identity theory. And to your point about being a daughter or not being a daughter, being a caregiver, it, it's a constant evolution. Right. Especially depending on where a person is in their impairment, you know, so as, as, there's an example that I use from A book that I reference often. It's about where we place ourselves in on that caregiver continuum. And it's going to be different for every single person, not only in who we think of ourselves as, as a caregiver and or daughter, wife, sister, whatever that looks like. It also is going to change again based on this fluid movement through a diagnosis like dementia that is going to give you some plateaus and then send you back and you don't. We clearly are working in the predictability of the unpredictable. So the only thing that's predictable is that it's unpredictable. And so if, let's say, bathing or toileting is something that can be a very sensitive issue when it comes to a disease, that can ultimately take that capacity away from the person who's suffering from the diagnosis. And as a daughter, let's say, you might say as a daughter, I can integrate this task into my role as daughter, because I'm a daughter and I'm here for it all. I will show up, I will bathe them, I will toilet them. I'll do whatever I have to do. And there is the person who says, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am a daughter. And there is a line here. [00:32:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:53] Speaker A: And I. To. For me to preserve the sanctity, the sacredness of my relationship with my parent, I will not be doing the bathing and the toileting. I will be enlisting the support of. Of an outside person that I've, you know, vetted and trust to come in and do that work. And so again, it's like, how do we continuously accommodate our. Our. The needs of the person and integrate it into our role as the caregiver, slash family member? [00:33:26] Speaker C: Well, and I would say from my own personal experience that I absolutely was that person who said, never. I will never, never do that. And now I don't even think twice about it because certainly the never goes away when someone isn't available or someone doesn't show up or your mother is sitting in a terrible situation, that it would break my heart worse to have her sitting in that situation. But, you know, I look at my brother and I think, but of course, he would never. And I wouldn't want him to. I would rather drive over there myself and do that. But I would imagine that you in your practice are probably, I guess, are you trying to help people figure out what their boundaries are or what their. How to muster the strength to do something that they never thought they'd do? I guess I'm curious about how those conversations go. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Well, one thing I talk often about, and this is really a reference from my yoga practice, it has to do with our attachment, right? So if we're attached to, we're usually more depleted by things not looking like how we think they're supposed to look. Well, it's not supposed to be this way, and therefore I can't cope with it. But here's the thing, like, we get to be aware of that and be aware of our attachment to something that isn't looking the way we thought it was going to look. And then with that awareness, take a step back so that we can not take a step back, but like be an observer to it in a way that allows us to see what other possibilities are available to us. So an example, I'm like it then that goes back to the cognitive behavioral therapy I use. You know, it's like looking at how we're thinking, you know, the all or nothing thinking, and how those kinds of cognitive distortions get, can get in the way of us being, getting to where we want to get to, you know, because if we're stopped by the attachment or we're stopped by the distortion of the thought, like the sky is falling, can we ask ourselves, is the sky falling? No. Is, you know, are there some things that are working here? Yes. Are there things that are not working? Yes. Let's identify those and see what we can, how we can address those and manage them in a way that, you know, helps you move forward, you know, reframe those. [00:35:53] Speaker C: It's interesting because in my yoga practice as well, I have an instructor who does this comment all the time, which I think is so great. She'll say, okay, you're standing in a pose, it's uncomfortable. Is it unbearable uncomfortable or is it just uncomfortable? Are your arms going to actually fall off? I've never seen that happen. But if you really think your arms are going to fall off, then by all means take them out of the air and put them somewhere else. And I do feel like I've brought this up many times because I'm an avid yogi and I feel very strongly about my yoga practice guiding me in my dementia care practice. And I feel like I don't even know how I would cope with now our second parent with dementia without having that practice. But I love that you brought that up because I think about those conversations all the time. Is the sky falling? [00:36:44] Speaker A: Is. [00:36:44] Speaker C: Is. My own therapist would constantly say, oh, how are, how is, how's it going? When you are living in the doomsday world planning for the worst thing that's gonna happen. Is that really helping you get through the day? Or could you acknowledge. Yeah, probably at some point some pretty bad things are gonna happen, but they're not happening in this moment. And if something really terrible was happening, you know, going back to the yoga piece, take your arms out of the air and figure out a different strategy. And I do recognize that connection. I'm glad you brought that up because I would imagine that you must be advising your patients that that mind body piece is so huge. And also finding something that brings them a level of comfort outside of this caregiving world has got to be incredibly meaningful. [00:37:32] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And. And so that, I mean, you named so many things in. In that, in what you just said and, and so much of it. [00:37:39] Speaker C: I'm very therapized and very yoga ized. [00:37:45] Speaker A: We're soul sisters. [00:37:47] Speaker C: It's the Karens. See, we're good people. We're good people. [00:37:51] Speaker B: You're changing the Karen impression before our eyes right now, you guys. [00:37:54] Speaker C: So happy. [00:37:55] Speaker A: I love it. Yes. And as a caregiver, we're tasked with tolerating uncertainty at a level that we've never likely been challenge to do. I mean, really, because that, that uncertainty around, well, how long is it going to be this way and what's going to happen when and. And then again to the yoga piece, bringing ourselves back to the present moment and not catastrophizing, which is bringing us only angst and chaos in, you know, so it's those kinds of concepts and being also being present to this other concept of both. And like, you can both be loving and want your parent to be around forever. And you might also wish this was over because it's so hard. [00:38:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:38:50] Speaker B: And I'd love to pick up on that topic of uncertainty, which has become a theme over our recent episodes. I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, that's an important concept to also come to, to terms with because there's so much uncertainty about what is the right thing to do. Even if you have the right information and you're all aligned with your family members on what should be done, you don't know for sure that that's the right thing to do. And it's okay that there's going to be a lot of uncertainty and there's of course, uncertainty in what's going through the mind of your dementia senior. What are they thinking? Are they thinking something that they can't express physically because their connections are broken, or are they not hearing it? All these things you just don't know sometimes what's happening. And I'll just bring up one specific example that happened today and maybe you can give us some insights on this free therapy, if it's okay. Took my mom to her six month. Every six months she goes to the ear doctor and she has earwax build up. And so she at minimum needs to get that earwax kind of like tunneled out of there by the doctor so she can hear a little bit better. [00:39:56] Speaker C: She used the service announcement. They really said, no Q tips. And we want to make sure that. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Big take. I didn't really realize it. No Q tips for anybody. She just said, sorry, Q tip is not going to be a sponsor, unfortunately, probably this podcast. That was the advice given by the doctor. Now I advise everyone to do their own research, but supposedly it's not really a benefit because it sticks the wax back in there. But anyway, [00:40:23] Speaker A: I know because I want to know, how am I going to clean my ears? [00:40:25] Speaker B: I love a podcast episode. The body takes care of it on its own. It pushes it out. It's like when you get a sliver. Yeah, no, supposedly that's what the doc said. [00:40:36] Speaker C: I had no idea. [00:40:37] Speaker B: I know, it's mind boggling. And she and mom used to wear hearing aids, which definitely helps, but she would lose them and they're thousands of dollars. And finally we got to the point where it's not like she's deaf. We can have conversations and we can see that she's responding. We might have to be a little bit closer to her and enunciate a little bit better, but clearly she's hearing okay. And so we have, you know, the past couple years, we're like, okay, this is fine. We don't need to try to get hearing aids that are going to be thrown down the toilet. And all the other options, they don't seem to be a good idea. And then today, you know, the doctor was saying, and they did a hearing test today, which they don't do every time. And she said she's okay, but she's probably missing one out of three words. And again, we don't know if that's absolutely true because we don't know if she's not able to communicate what she's hearing or not based when the test is happening. But it sounds like that might be true based on our experience. And so 33% of the words that are coming through her, she's not catching. Is that something that should be acted upon? And so like, she did give some other. Thank. Thank the doctor. She gave some other non hearing Aid really expensive recommendations called this. There's one pocket thing that you put kind of a pendant with it, but you also have to wear headphones, but it does amplify sound and it's only a few hundred bucks. And like, is she really going to wear headphones? And so, like, now you're starting to think, is it all worth it? You know, so she can catch that extra word that she's missing. And our instinct is no, but you're not sure. And then. So now you're in something. And this is uncertainty on an issue that we thought was settled, that now we're thinking about again. At least I am. And so are those. Is this an example of something like this that comes up that you have to deal with with the family? [00:42:27] Speaker A: I mean, I think at some point you again, trust the process, trust that you're. You are making the best decisions you can make based on the information you have, both from what the doctor is giving you and from the feedback that you get from your mom. And I don't know how to say this with. I don't want to sound like I'm saying that we would intentionally compromise quality of life because no, we're here to optimize it. Yet at the same time, to what end are we going to go? [00:43:02] Speaker B: There's a big picture of quality of life. [00:43:04] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, really, like the, in the book Being Mortal, he talks about are we prolonging life or are we prolonging death? You know, like what, when we stay alive longer? What does that mean if there's no quality of life? Again, that's an extreme example and not to the point you're making is about hearing. And that has to do with being engaged and being, having quality of life. And I see it, I've got clients who've got Cochrane Nuclear implants and, and, and then you, then you add in the new technology and in a way, at what cost are we trying to create that or let that third word come into the conversation? At what, at what level of stress? When you have to figure out how to make your device connect and figure out where to. Oh, my gosh, it's. Yeah, there's a lot of things to consider. Let's just say that. Yeah, for sure. [00:43:59] Speaker C: Yeah. I kind of thinking also just this came to mind that we talk about how fortunate we are that the three of us are very much on the same page in terms of our care plan essentially for our mother. What we think about our care level right now, what we're thinking about the future. But imagine that's not always the case for what you see. Do you have families come in where you have to kind of be the mediator in certain conversations? And how do you do that? [00:44:31] Speaker A: Just had this last week with. Yeah, I've had this many times where the family comes in. In this. Well, because, yes, every person sees the. The person who's diagnosed the patient, if you will, through their own unique lens. So you each see your mother through the lens of who she is, through who you know her to be in the narrative that has been created and embedded throughout your entire life. And so that's distinct from Karen's, is distinct from Andrew's. Andrew's is distinct from another sibling. It's. And so there gets to be agreement around finding common ground. And so. Good. You found the common ground. Oftentimes that's where I need to get to with the family. You know, like recently met with a family where it was blended. All adult children, the parent and the adult children were trying to. It was a space where they were able to express to the spouse this is how their parent had always been. This was not new because of a diagnosis. This was amplified because of a diagnosis, yet it wasn't new behavior. And so the way that he. They felt that his. He was. His lack of. His inability to sort of cope with it in a way that was productive with their mother. They felt like giving him that input in a space where we could all be together. It's safe. Everyone is seen, everyone is heard. There is no blame, no shame, no. No antagonism, no offense, defense. None of that. Everyone comes in. And what I really like to do is ask each person, including if the person who's been diagnosed as part of the conversation. I always ask for permission. Do I have permission to ask your daughter what changes she's observing that you might not see? And that's because we all have blind spots. Not because we have. Oh. Not necessarily because of a diagnosis, but because, you know, one person sees things that we don't. The subjective versus the objective. Okay, so. And what that does is in that safe container, it allows someone to give feedback in a way that they've been given permission to. They've been given permission to give the feedback, and the person who's receiving the feedback is. Has been invited to opt into the conversation and acknowledge it and then respond to it. So I. I really enjoy that process because so much comes out that people are surprised by, because it's not a conversation they would have had around the kitchen table or, you know, just by happenstance. But when it's intentional and guided by an impartial third party, I feel like we really have some sometimes, some really, always actually really good outcomes. [00:47:33] Speaker C: I love the concept of the guided by the objective third party. It is so meaningful for families to be able to do that. And there's so much uncertainty surrounding this that you can understand why conflict exists. But I hope people will seek out that kind of care for their families, because that level of disconnect is only going to lead to more trauma than they're already facing. [00:47:58] Speaker A: Exactly. Yes. [00:48:00] Speaker B: And Karen. Karen. Faith Gordon, not Karen Edelson. [00:48:04] Speaker C: It's okay, I got it. [00:48:06] Speaker B: This is. This is all very heavy stuff that you deal with on a daily basis. How do you manage your own mental health and deal with your own. I mean, it's got to be sad sometimes when you're hearing the stories and working through it. Like, how do you take care of yourself during all this? [00:48:24] Speaker A: Thank you for asking that question. And, you know, walking the walk is. Is a big deal to me because I talk all day and I, you know, I feel like we get to practice what we preach. And if I'm talking to someone about, you know, giving themselves grace, am I doing the same for myself? And the quick answer is, no, not always. And honestly, for me, my yoga practice and the philosophies and the community, whether I'm by myself, you know, practicing my yoga or I'm in a community practicing, the messaging and the messages and the messengers are all the. These all help me to sort of process and almost have my own self debrief. I do have colleagues who I can decompress with. But again, I will admit that since going into private practice, it's been far more challenging for me. I always worked in spaces where I had colleagues in the same space. And I looked forward to our weekly meetings to debrief and hear other perspectives. And, you know, I love that. And I don't have that right now because I'm a solo practitioner. And so I get to be really mindful of seeking it out for myself by being, you know, honest with myself when I'm feeling the burnout and being able to talk it through with my own therapist or a friend who I know is just going to be a great sounding board because I'm looking for a listener, not. Not a fixer, you know, so that's how I take care of myself. [00:50:09] Speaker B: That's fantastic. Well, let's. Let's get you out of here on this. And I don't know if it's possible, but if we can End up on a, on a high note. As, as, as heavy and sad as these things are to deal with. Karen and I try to find levity with our situation with mom whenever we can. And I got to imagine when you're going through these discussions and the work with the family and some of your aged patients, what, any positives or like revelations or enlightenment that comes out of these things where you're like, you know what, that was pretty cool. And I think they're feeling much better now. [00:50:48] Speaker A: Yes, thank you for asking. And that's perfect. To sort of conclude on a high note is perfect. Yes. There's nothing. The things that really fuel me are exactly what you just said. The, the sense of a person getting up to walk out of my office and saying, I feel so much better now. I, they didn't have anywhere else to put all that stuff. Sometimes they'll say, I feel so bad I dumped all over you with all this stuff. But the best thing that can happen, one of the best things that can happen happened a week or so ago. A client came in and she's not diagnosed with anything, but she had the, the insight and wherewithal to see in herself that she was sort of blocked, let's say, you know, like what you hear all the time. I'm a procrastinator. And because I've procrastinated now, I've gotten myself into this rut. Well, she, she was able to come in, identify where she was procrastinating in her life. And after a few sessions she came in and said, you know what? I had a breakthrough. And since I've had that breakthrough, everything else has started to fall into place. And I am 75 years old and I know the value of therapy. And I appreciated like she, she appreciated the time we had spent together. And now she's gonna go off and do her thing and when she needs me, she can call me, but she doesn't need me all the time. And I'm not here to be needed all the time. I'm here to, to offer those tools that you then take with you, which, let's be honest, you probably already have, because we all have these tools. Sometimes we just need to refine them or gain new access to them. And if this space can do that, then that's what I'm all about. You launch into whatever is next for you, feeling great about it. [00:52:41] Speaker C: That's such a great positive piece to end on. And also delightful that your 75 year old patient is learning something new about herself that's helping to Bring her a more peaceful existence. What a lovely job you do. And how grateful are we to have input from people like you when we're living in this challenging circumstance? So thank you for all that you do. I'm glad that you got that validation. [00:53:11] Speaker A: I am, too. And I. I put it back to the. It's. It's a. It's a dance, right? Because we can talk. It's up to us when we walk out of wherever we walk out of, to use what we have to create what's next. And so for me, what's so inspiring, I am so honored and inspired by my clients because they are. I mean, I'm aging right up into my career every day, and it's inspiring for me to see what's possible when we remain active and engaged and accountable for our lives, whether it's for ourselves, for others, as caregivers, as care receivers, whatever that looks like. It's empowering and inspiring to know that it can happen. And I get to see that every day. [00:54:00] Speaker B: It certainly is. Karen, Faith Gordon, thank you so much. We loved our discussion. I know it's going to help so many people. And we're going to talk to you soon. In the meantime, here's mom to play us a little diddy. And we are back. Thrilling discussion. Wow. I feel like I need to go see a therapist right now. [00:54:54] Speaker C: If you think you need to see a therapist, you do. [00:54:58] Speaker B: How about this? If you think you don't need to see a therapist, you do. That's my takeaway. [00:55:04] Speaker C: Okay, that's a good point. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Your takeaways. [00:55:08] Speaker C: Well, first of all, I really thought it was interesting, and I appreciated, actually, that she listened to our piece that we talked about with our mom. The idea about seeing patients as they're in decline. I hadn't really thought so much about that, but I would imagine that if you are still fairly cognizant of what's happening to you and you realize that it's happening. I mean, I kind of remember that with dad for a bit. I think that has got to be beyond unsettling, and especially given the fact that, you know, if you are starting to lean into stages of dementia, it's gotta be really scary. And I really kind of appreciated the idea that if you are still in a position to have a conversation with a professional about it, how beneficial that might be, because I can't imagine what it must feel like to kind of have an idea of what's coming and not really know how to handle it. [00:56:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I recall Sheila talking about that Back in our snarky Sheila episode, because she can. Even with her, it's not even a mental thing yet as much, but she can see her body physically decline, and she's able to witness that and understand what's happening. And it's a bummer. It's definitely a big bummer. I can understand that. But also just. It was interesting to hear Karen Other Karen kfg. If I say kfg, drill down a point that you raised in the opening, which is. And something that I've also felt when I've done therapy in the past, one of the biggest aspects of value that I get from therapy is the sense check on things that are happening or how I'm behaving or how I'm seeing things or what I'm doing. And to have someone say something like, oh, yeah, that's kind of within the range of things that people experience, and that's not uncommon. And you belong to a community of other people that are dealing with these things and. Or sometimes, hey, you realize you're a little bit out of whack here with this thing. You know, like it's. It's outsized your reaction to this thing that's going on. And that is something you probably want to examine. Slash, you're being crazy. Stop it. [00:57:26] Speaker C: Well, I think those things are very important, the use of the word crazy. But fair noted. [00:57:32] Speaker B: I'm not going to stop using the word crazy. It's too good. I won't stop using it. [00:57:35] Speaker C: Okay. It's just too good. [00:57:36] Speaker B: I'm not ready yet. [00:57:38] Speaker C: That concept that I do of the overreacting, especially to things that haven't happened yet, is very. It's valuable for me to be able to bounce that off of someone I trust who can say, keep this in check. Yes, you may need to worry about that, but that's not what you're worrying about today. And I also really think the idea that families, siblings, caregivers have an outlet, whether it is a community support group, whether it's individual therapists, whether it is other people in the caregiving realm to just. Just bounce off thoughts, feelings, ideas. I think we talk about this constantly. And Karen KFG brought this up as well. This concept of community. We say that word all the time, but I can't think of something that is more relevant in the caregiving world than being able to share your experiences with other people. It brings you a sense of clarity and a feeling of being heard and recognizing that you are so not alone. When, man, you can feel really alone in this So I think that that probably would be one of the number one takeaways from this conversation. So many conversations that we've had. [00:59:01] Speaker B: Well, that's. Yeah, definitely. I agree. That's a through line of this powerful tool for mental health is that community. And just like she said for mom, we're not doing the traditional therapy work anymore, but having a visit from a rabbi or a friend or somebody who plays music or does her nails or whatever the case may be, these are also positive influences on her mental health in her current state. And it's just different tactics that you're using. And of course, knowing that you're a member of a community as a caregiver is invaluable. So staying connected and talking to people and just having that human interaction is always very powerful. Good stuff for you. [00:59:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. And for mom, I think that, you know, while she's not benefiting from a therapy position, she is benefiting from visits from community, from our Mother's Day activity. Right. So huge for her. [00:59:57] Speaker B: Indeed she is. Indeed she is. All right, well, would you like to give us our salutations and askings of the community before we leave? [01:00:06] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. We didn't even make a fuss over this episode. This is episode 20. [01:00:11] Speaker B: Oh, my God. That's how focused we are. [01:00:13] Speaker C: I know. [01:00:14] Speaker B: How. Don't even realize it. Milestone episode. [01:00:17] Speaker C: That is a milestone. Also, my brother, I will say it again, how thrilled I am to be doing this with you and how meaningful it is and how this piece alone sometimes feels like therapy to me and how grateful I am that we one are doing this with each other, but also that. That we're doing this for the benefit of others. I love hearing from people who tell us. I really resonated that episode resonated with me. Or I've listened because I'm in a similar situation, and it gives me that sense of community. Community, community. We say it a thousand times over. So we would love to hear from all of you. We'll take comments, compliments, suggestions, and ifitsnot1gmail.com we also appreciate the like. Listen, share, subscribe. The more of these we have, the better off we are in our continuity of more episodes to come. [01:01:16] Speaker B: And I would just like to echo your sentiments and. And just like to also add that I kind of like it when somebody tells me the episode was just kind of boring. We don't hit each one out of the park. And obviously some of the material is a bit dense, and it's a. For a very specialized audience. But any comment positive, negative, neutral or off topic. We totally appreciate. So thanks for listening. We really value your patronage and we'll try to keep doing the good work. [01:01:47] Speaker C: All right, I'm giving one more shout out. You know my niece, Sarah Crane. There has not been one episode where she hasn't given us feedback at the end, and I love it. Keep it coming, Sarah. We appreciate you. [01:01:58] Speaker B: Keep it coming. [01:02:00] Speaker C: All right, here's mom to play us out. [01:02:06] Speaker A: It's looking at you and when you see the moon at night that will always fade you.